Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: In defence of the Salafis Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 4 Next >>
Author Message
rami
Male  Islam
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Senior Member

Joined: 01 March 2000
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2550
Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 03 June 2005 at 2:54am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

After reading in-depth , after what happened after the demise of Holy Prophet (PBUH) , i concluded, that IMAM ALI is the rightly appointed successor to Holy Prophet and the followers of Imam Ali , have thus direct link to Holy Prophet.

Have you taken the time to find out what traditional Sunni scholars say on these matters, not simply what Shia say sunni's say. I recently got into an argument with a shia br over him telling what Sunni's are suposed to believe and not believe, if i was tyo repeat his claims here no doubt even those who are knowledgable among the shia would refute his claims they were so fundamentaly flawed.

Look at what Muawiyah did to Imam Ali....hundreds of people killed in Siffeen in the war against the RIGHTLY Appointed successor of Prophet. But I am amazed how my Sunni brothers and sisters just ignore this huge fact and still respect this person (muawiya)

No person can fully know what occured at that time, or what each persons intention is. The sunni traditional view on this matter is that both exercised there own personel Ijtihad But Muawiyah was wrong and Imam Ali was right.

Even if you look at the world today, True Islam is being represented by the teachings of Islamic Revolution in iran.

I dont think you are in a position to judge this, Sunni make up about 90% of the entire Muslim Population while the Shia are about 8%. Not many shia themselves would claim that iran is a true islamic government.

We have same book, same Allah, same Kaaba, same Prophet, but unfortunately, i have seen Salafis, curse and swear and label as Kafir 'other muslims". I have not met a single Shia brother or sister who will call others Kafir.

Salafis are a minority extremeist group among the Sunnis, Traditional Sunni islam is that of the Madhhabs, which is roughly 85% of Sunni Islam. Salafis make takfir of all groups so i dont see how this has anythign to do with sunni shia discussion.

All this has led me to study Shia school deeply and I conlcuded that SHIAISM is the mainstream and the direct connection to Holy Prophet.

If you base this simply on the Idea that Ali should have been the rightfull ruler than this is nothing but a political decision the sunnah of rasul allah and laws of allah are not derived from this event but the Quran and reported Ahadith.

Another mind-boggling fact :

SON of Imam Ali, hussain gave up everything in karabala , when he was killed by Yazeed son of Muawiya.

But HOW MANY SUNNIS do we know who even respect and consider Imam hussain as a HERO of islam and condemn the killer army of yazid?

Despite the difference my shia -contacts urge me to join hands with other muslims based on our common points.

This is an obvious lie, I kindly ask br Ali Zaki to explain to the sister that Sunnis do love and respect Imam Ali, Hasan, Husain and Ahl Al bait.

And that condeming Muawiyah is not an article of faith in islam and is not required or even make a person a better muslim for doing it.

I dont know who you are talking to sister but please ask traditional Sunni Scholars about our beliefes we know them better than our Shia brothers as they know theres better than us.


Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
IP IP Logged
Ali Zaki
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 03 June 2005 at 10:22am

Salam Rami,

" "the stars are the refuge for the dwellers of the skies. So if the stars are destroyed, the dwellers of the skies will also be destroyed. The members of my Household are the refuge for the dwellers of the earth. If they are destroyed, the dwellers of the earth also be destroyed" (Muhib Tabari in "Zakhair al-`Uqba", 17/1 and `Ali bin Sultan Muhammad Qari in "Mirqat al-Mafatih" 610/5, Egypt, 1339 A.H.)."

For a complete examination (with references from respected Sunni scholars) on identity and importance of the Ahly Al'Bayt, see

http://al-islam.org/mot/default.asp?url=14ahlbayt.htm

The hadith of "the two weighty things" designates a special relationship between the Quran and the Ahly Al'Bayt. So if the relationship is not as the Shia say, then what is your alternative explantion for the purpose of this hadith? What about the numerous other Hadith? (such as the prophet statement that " I am the City of Knowledge and Ali is it's Gate", etc.). What is the reason and purpose for them?

The Quran does not say of any other group that they have been "purified with a complete purification." If this is refering to the wives of the prophet, then why is the group address using the male gender (which is only appropriate for mixed or male-only group)? If the group includes the wives of the prophet, then what do we do when one of the wives of the prophet attacks another member of the throughly puried group (Imam Ali)? Whose side to we take (if they have both been purified and are fighting eachother?)

Allah(s.w.a.) is the source of all guidance. Any individual who sincerly seeks guidance will be granted it from Allah (s.w.a), there is not doubt about this. Often Allah (s.w.a.) send other human beings to guide us, instead of guiding us directly. If Allah wants us to obey someone absolutely, then that person must be free from commiting errors, otherwise, we will "follow them into hell." (which is what to be raised with your leader means, it means to be raised with the person you CHOOSE to follow and depended on for guidance, not the leader of your state/country).

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
IP IP Logged
rami
Male  Islam
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Senior Member

Joined: 01 March 2000
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2550
Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 05 June 2005 at 8:24am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

asslamu alaikum

Your line of argument is not relavent, i have not said that Ahl Al bait are not important. There are even more ahadith in which rasul allah (salla llahu alaihi wa sallam) says i have left behind two things the Quran and my Sunnah these two are stressed even more so by ahadith and the Quran than anything relating to ahl Al Bait without taking any importance away from Ahl al bait.

These ae the points i have made above

-Rasul Allah taught his sunnah to his community not only his family, you can not argue that we can not understand the Quran and sunnah without Ahl al Bayt.

-Guidance is for evey person not just Ahl al Bait as Allah himself says in the Quran and hadith.

-intercession is not only for Ahl al Bait as it is stated in the Quran and sunnah.

-A person will be judged and punished, intercession is only after judgment and in most cases after punishment, so you will face the hardships of that day.

Are any of these points incorect?  

then what is your alternative explantion for the purpose of this hadith? What about the numerous other Hadith? (such as the prophet statement that " I am the City of Knowledge and Ali is it's Gate", etc.). What is the reason and purpose for them?


A rule of Usul al Fiqh and Tafsir "do not interprate the quran and sunnah in a way that will make it contradict other parts of the Quran and sunnah". Allah's Guidance is for every person who strives for it, this is plainly said in the Quran.

And stay in your houses. Bedizen not yourselves with the bedizenment of the Time of Ignorance. Be regular in prayer, and pay the poor-due, and obey Allah and His messenger. Allah's wish is but to remove uncleanness far from you, O Folk of the Household, and cleanse you with a thorough cleansing.


This verse is not sat saying that all Ahl al bait will achieve purafication or "have been" purified, but that Allah wishes/desires purafication for them. To my understanding this means that Allah accepts there efforts towards Him more easily than the efforts of the remainder of his Ummah. Meaning it is easier for them to trun towards Allah and his religion becouse there efforts are more redaly accepted, You can not interprate it in a way to say that The laws of punishment and forgiveness, destiny...etc work diferently Allah treats them exactly the same except that you will find tahrah is easier for them to achieve.

And this is evident throughout history that many Sunni Scholars and Awliyah have been from among Ahl al Bait but As Allah said Guidance is not only for them but for all those who strive towards Allah. Which is why more Often than not They have been the pilars of the Ummah but not exclusively.

In the verse Allah uses the word Taharah or purification, i think the following is needed to understand what Allah means by taharah so we dont claim about Allah's intention more than what he said.

Question:

Can you clarify the different implications of the words "taharah" and "tazkiyah" as related to 9:103?  Both of them have been used in the Qur'an for purification, and obviously the verse is devoid of redundancy.  Can you clarify the differing implications of each word?  And can you also clarify taharah and takiyah as it relates to Zakah?

Answer:

Although the words 'Taharah' and 'Tazkiyah' can sometimes be used as synonymous, yet there is a slight difference in the connotation of the two. The word 'Taharah' is used primarily for cleansing and purification from any undesired effects or qualities, while the word 'Tazkiyah', in addition to cleansing and purification, from the undesired effects and qualities, also entails the promotion, development and elevation of any desired qualities. In other words, 'Tazkiyah', in contrast to 'Taharah' is not merely to remove the undesired effects and qualities, but actually to replace such undesired effects and qualities with positive or desired qualities.

When used together, as is the case in Al-Taubah 9: 103, the word 'Taharah' implies cleansing from the undesired attributes, while 'Tazkiyah' implies the development and the elevation of the desired qualities.

In the referred verse, the Prophet (pbuh) is directed to be kind toward those people, who, even though are true in their faith - as against the hypocrites - yet, due to their weaknesses, keep getting involved in sin. The verse directs the Prophet (pbuh) to accept their contributions. This acceptance and kindness of the Prophet (pbuh) and his prayers for their forgiveness, would not only help them overcome their weaknesses (taharah) but would also replace these weaknesses by spiritual and moral strengths (Tazkiyah).

In reality you will find many among ahl al bait who are tahar, or do not have bad qualities but at the same time have not developed the good qualities. becouse they have not made any effort in the religion but those who have the path is more clear for them since the taharah is easier to achieve.

In the end the effort has to come from the person, as the scholars have said we make the intention and allah creates the actions for us to do.

then why is the group address using the male gender (which is only appropriate for mixed or male-only group)?


Br you are trying to argue a quote on a website with out even having had a look at the entire evidnce from the scholars you desire to refute. It is not reasnoble to entertain the idea that they made such a simple mistake and this is the reason why they are wrong we are talking about scholars of high calibr with extremely good memory's even if you do not agree with there opinion as other sunni scholars have not agreed it does not take away anything from there calibr. If we were to say it did this would then be nothing but an emotional argument which lacks balance and objectivity.

If the group includes the wives of the prophet, then what do we do when one of the wives of the prophet attacks another member of the throughly puried group (Imam Ali)? Whose side to we take (if they have both been purified and are fighting eachother?)


Which wife attacked Imam Ali ? i find this an amazing stament, i have never heard that the war was to attack Imam Ali. It seems you are adding something from your own interpretation rather than looking at facts.

The verse also never said they Are thouroghly purified this is clear, Desire to purify is intent towards something not a statment of past tence.

If Allah wants us to obey someone absolutely, then that person must be free from commiting errors, otherwise, we will "follow them into hell." (which is what to be raised with your leader means, it means to be raised with the person you CHOOSE to follow and depended on for guidance, not the leader of your state/country).


A person does not have to be free from errors what kind of standard are you setting. Many shia br's tell me that it is not permisable to follow a dead imam, i dont see an inumrable number of infalible Shia scholars many Imams make mistakes and commit sins does that mean they and there followers are going to hell. Are you denying Allahs Mercy and the accountability oif each person for his own sins.

I dont know any hadith which says you will be rasied with your leader? The only one i know is that you will be raised with those you love. The person you choose for guidance will not be accountablke for your sins, nor will allah send him to hell on an error or a mistake or you having followed that mistake.

unless the misguidance was on purpose but i dont know to many people like that only those who make mistakes believing in there actions.
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
IP IP Logged
Abu Hadi
 
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 29
Quote Abu Hadi Replybullet Posted: 05 June 2005 at 3:09pm

Salams, br. Rami

Quoting br. rami

" ...And this is evident throughout history that many Sunni Scholars and Awliyah have been from among Ahl al Bait "

I think there is a misunderstanding here. When we are talking about the Ahl Al Bayt, we are not talking about the descendants of the prophet in general or current leaders(like Imam Khomeni) or the Ulama.

"Allah wishes to remove all impurity from you, O members of the household, and to purify you completely" (33:33).

This is talking about 5 individuals, Prophet Muhammed(p.b.u.h), Sayyida Fatima(a.s.), Imam Ali(a.s.), Imam Hassan(a.s.), and Imam Hussein(a.s) according to all Shia Ulama. The Holy Prophet(p.b.u.h) narrated Hadith Al Qisa in order to clarify this point. This hadith is recorded by many ulama, Shia and Sunni. For a full list of references, see below link.

Moreover, the wives of the Prophet all knew the intent of the noble verse, and, consequently, not one of them claimed to be from the ahl al-bayt. At the head of these [wives] were Umm Salama and 'A'isha. Every one of them narrated that the verse was specifically for the Prophet of Allah (S.A.W.), 'Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan and al-Husayn. Muslim, al-Tirmidhi, al-Hakim, al-Tabari, al-Suyuti, al-Dhahabi, Ibn al-Athir and others, have all reported their (the wives') acceptance of this

http://al-islam.org/ask/3.html#1

Quoting br rami,

" A rule of Usul al Fiqh and Tafsir "do not interprate the quran and sunnah in a way that will make it contradict other parts of the Quran and sunnah". Allah's Guidance is for every person who strives for it, this is plainly said in the Quran "

I will let br Ali Zaki clarify this, but I don't think his point was to do tafsir or Usul al Fiqh. He was simply quoting other source of tafsir. Also, I think he was asking for your explaination of the Hadith ( or an alternative explanation from your perspective). As far as the Quran goes, I don't see anything in what he is saying that contradicts it. As far as the Sunnah, you will have to enlighten us as to what part of it is being contradicted.

Respectfully and with Salams,

There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error...
Quran Ch.2 Verse 256
IP IP Logged
rami
Male  Islam
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Senior Member

Joined: 01 March 2000
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2550
Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 05 June 2005 at 7:33pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum br

I was also including there decendants, otherwise i do not see there role and importance in our life time if we were to limit it to them alone.

The General Explanation of the verse is still the same that Allah wished it for them...etc except i would also add that they were Awliyah of Allah.

My statment about contradiction was a general statment saying we can not take one verse or hadith as an exlanation for everything. Eg Rasul Allah left Behind Ahl al Bayt he Also left behind his Sunnah.

To my understanding most or many Shia Ahadith are from Ahl al Bait maybe that is why You are stressing there importance, Most sunni ahadith are not from Ahl al Bait (as you define it) there Importance to us lies in the many scholars that have come which have guided this Ummah through there work and systemising the Shariah giving it a formal framework and hence preserving it from coruption and people interpreting it how they want like we see with people today, there Importance also comes from the many Awliyah we have who set the framework for the moral teachings of Rasul Allah such as Abdul Qadir al Gilani (ra) who was Hasan Husaini if my memory is corect.




Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
IP IP Logged
Abu Hadi
 
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 29
Quote Abu Hadi Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2005 at 8:09am

Quoting Rami,

"To my understanding most or many Shia Ahadith are from Ahl al Bait maybe that is why You are stressing there importance, Most sunni ahadith are not from Ahl al Bait (as you define it)"

I didn't define the term, RasoulAllah(p.b.u.h) defined it. I am just relaying the information. If you would like to talk about sources and definitions, maybe this would be more productive.

" I was also including there decendants, otherwise i do not see there role and importance in our life time if we were to limit it to them alone "

I will post more on this later, when I have some time InShahAllah. This is a big subject

There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error...
Quran Ch.2 Verse 256
IP IP Logged
Ali Zaki
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2005 at 8:28am

REGARDING THE LEADERSHIP OF IMAM ALI

I understand that our Sunni brothers respect (and give credibility to) the respected companion know as "ibn Abbas". Maybe you would be interested in his words regarding the rightful successor to the Prophet (a.s.)

. Ibn Abbas's address on Khilafah

He said: Abu Hafs Umar b. Muhammad reported to me from Abu Abdillah Ja'far b. Muhammad al-Hasani, who reported from Isa b. Mehran, who reported from Hafs b. Umar al-Farra, who reported from Abu Muaz al-Khazzaz from Ubaidullah b. Ahmad al-Rab'ai, who said:

While Ibn Abbas addressed the people of Basrah, when he came face to face with them, he said: "O people who are lost and confused about its faith, if you had given precedence to him who Allah had preferred, and if you had kept back him who Allah had kept back, and if you had kept the inheritance and the authority where Allah had kept them, then the share (in inheritance) ordained by Allah would not have devolved upon distant relatives (leaving behind the actual heirs), nor would the Wali of Allah have been deprived; and no two persons would have ever differed about a divine order, nor would the Ummah enter into any disputations about any interpretation of the Book of Allah. So now, have a taste of the evil consequence earned by your disregard, and by your own hands. And those who do injustice shall soon come to know what punishment awaits them."

SOURCE: http://www.al-islam.org/amali/8.htm

Please note that ibn Abbas does NOT say if you had given precedence to him who you (yourselves had CHOOSEN), rather, he says " if you had given precedence to him who Allah had preferred." Can this be anyone other than Imam Ali (a.s.)

WHICH ONE OF THE PROPHETS WIVES WAGED WAR AGAINST IMAM ALI? (a.s.)

"He said: Abul Hasan Ali b. Khalid al-Maraghi al-Qalanisi reported to me from Abul Qasim al-Hasan b. Ali b. al-Hasan, who reported from Ja'far b. Muhammad b. Marwan who reported from his father, who reported from Ishaq b. Yazid, who reported from Khalid b. Mukhtar, who reported from al-A'amash from Habbah alArani, who said:

I heard Hudhaifa b. al-Yaman a year before Uthman b. Affan was killed, saying: "As if I see your mother al-Humayra (i.e. Ayesha) on an expedition, being led on a camel, and you all clinging to the camel's flank and tail. She is with the people of Azd (a tribe) and is supported by Banu Dhabbah; may Allah sever their feet."

Then he said: When the battle of Jamal (the Camel) took place, and people prepared to confront each other, an announcer announced on behalf of Amirul Mo'mineen, peace be upon him, saying: "No one of you shall initiate the fight without my orders." Then they arrived: their arrows and hit us. We said: "O Amirul Mo'mineen, we have been hit." He said: "Withhold." Then again, they hit us and killed some of us. We said: "O Amirul Mon'mineen, we have been killed." So he said: "Attack! With the blessing of Allah."

He said: We attached our raised lances and spears to each others', so close, that if someone were to walk, he could walk over them. Then Ali (A.S.) announced: "Take to the swords." So we began to strike at their helmets but our swords bounced off. Then Amirul Mo'mineen said: "Aim at the feet."

He said: We have never seen so many feet chopped off on any one day. Then I remembered the narration of Hudhaifa when he mentioned Banu Dhabbah as her helpers, saying "may Allah sever their feet." I knew that it was a prayer, which had been answered.

Then Amirul Mo'mineen announced: "Proceed towards the camel for it is surely Satan." One soldier wounded the camel with his spear, and another one cut off its hand, so it fell to the ground with foam spurring from its mouth. Then Ayesha uttered a loud cry and her people turned back defeated. So, Amirul Mo'mineen announced: "Do not attack those who are fallen with wounds, and do not chase those who have fled. And whoever shuts his door, he shall be in peace. And whoever lays down his arms he shall be in peace."

SOURCE: http://www.al-islam.org/amali/9.htm

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
IP IP Logged
Ayubi1187
 
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 06 December 2001
Location: Somalia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 69
Quote Ayubi1187 Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2005 at 9:19am
Originally posted by Ali Zaki


SOURCE:

SOURCE: http://www.al-islam.org/amali/9.htm


Salam



Sens when is a page legitimate reference to islamic history? They didn't write the source on the page ether.
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 4 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com