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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Topic: In defence of the Salafis
    Posted: 10 April 2005 at 12:59am

As Salaam Alaikum,

Contrary to popular beliefs, Salafis are not "exclusionists". I have met many Ahle Hadith people who were once Hanafis or belonged to some other sect before they became Ahle Hadith. They are, however, purists.

I first met them few years back when I was in college. At that time  the concept of tawhid was not clear to me. I followed religion as my parents did. I used to go to mazaars and wear tavizs to keep of the bad luck. It were the Muslims form Ahle Hadith group that pointed to me the fault in my beliefs. At first, I was angered by their thinking but, I gradually became convinced that they are right, after they showed me evidence in Quran and hadith.

Needless to say their idealist approach to solve the problems plaguing the Ummah has earned them the wrath of pragmatic Muslims, who are for more utilitarian or materialistic approach. For example, to unite the Muslims, their (Salafi's) approach will be one of eliminating the differences between various sects of Muslims altogether, rather than making Muslims forget their differences (as other Muslims would attempt to do).

Though, I don't know about Salafis in detail, they certainly don't believe "Only those names which are respected on the salafi websites are on the right path, rest all have gone astray." Although, Ahle Hadith is a relatively small group, they are certainly gaining many new adherents. I believe it is the fastest growing organisation among the young muslims in India. Though, I am not a Ahle Hadith, myself, (I am ONLY a Muslim) I don't think they deserve to be treated as pariahs (as they are being treated by many Muslims).

Zaman

An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2005 at 1:09am

 

Also, an interesting web-site, regarding the subject:-

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/intro/islam-salafi.ht m

An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2005 at 6:07am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

The above is only your perspective based on your experiance as you say, others have different experiances with this group good and bad. There writtings speak for them self and a proper research into the matter will show you that there origins were exclusionists although it has been "tonned" down in recent years.

>>>their (Salafi's) approach will be one of eliminating the differences between various sects of Muslims altogether<<<

What are these different sects? the four madhhabs? becouse it is the madhhabs and traditional islamic sciences that they are attacking nothing else.

>>>"Only those names which are respected on the salafi websites are on the right path, rest all have gone astray."<<<

My experiance is something other than yours and from what i see it is common. If they have never heard of a scholar even if he is famous they will not even consider your argument, they require daleel for every single little issue to the point of it being rediculous. One br asked me for daleel when i gave him the muslim defanition of a sect.

You can not say you dont know much and be asertive in your statments at the same time, you should first learn and then base you opinion on knowledge.

Ahle al Hadith is a deceptive term and can only be used by those who are ignorant of the science of law and how to derive rulings in Islam, that alone should tell you the depth of there knowledge or lack of.


Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Rehmat
 
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Quote Rehmat Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2005 at 6:36am

Asslam-o-Aliakum

 

I have no problem with my Salafi or Wahabbi relatives – But I feel this post should be moved to ‘Interfaith Dialogues’.

 

Having said that – here is the view of a Sufi scholar, which could of some interest to some of you. However, I am out of this ‘subject’.

 

The word salafi or "early Muslim" in traditional Islamic scholarship means someone who died within the first four hundred years after the prophet Mohammed , including scholars such as Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafi'i, and Ahmad ibn Hanbal. Anyone who died after this is one of the khalaf or "latter-day Muslims".

The term "Salafi" was revived as a slogan and movement, among latter-day Muslims, by the followers of Muhammad Abduh (the student of Jamal al-Din al-Afghani) some thirteen centuries after the prophet Mohammed , approximately a hundred years ago. Like similar movements that have historically appeared in Islam, its basic claim was that the religion had not been properly understood by anyone since the prophet Mohammed  and the early Muslims--and themselves.

In terms of ideals, the movement advocated a return to a shari'a-minded orthodoxy that would purify Islam from unwarranted accretions, the criteria for judging which would be the Qur'an and hadith. Now, these ideals are noble, and I don't think anyone would disagree with their importance. The only points of disagreement are how these objectives are to be defined, and how the program is to be carried out. It is difficult in a few words to properly deal with all the aspects of the movement and the issues involved, but I hope to publish a fuller treatment later this year, insha'Allah, in a collection of essays called "The Re-Formers of Islam".

As for its validity, one may note that the Salafi approach is an interpretation of the texts of the Qur'an and sunna, or rather a body of interpretation, and as such, those who advance its claims are subject to the same rigorous criteria of the Islamic sciences as anyone else who makes interpretive claims about the Qur'an and sunna; namely, they must show:

1. that their interpretations are acceptable in terms of Arabic language;

2. that they have exhaustive mastery of all the primary texts that relate to each question, and

3. that they have full familiarity of the methodology of usul al-fiqh or "fundamentals of jurisprudence" needed to comprehensively join between all the primary texts.

Only when one has these qualifications can one legitimately produce a valid interpretive claim about the texts, which is called ijtihad or "deduction of shari'a" from the primary sources. Without these qualifications, the most one can legitimately claim is to reproduce such an interpretive claim from someone who definitely has these qualifications; namely, one of those unanimously recognized by the Umma as such since the times of the true salaf, at their forefront the mujtahid Imams of the four madhhabs or "schools of jurisprudence".

As for scholars today who do not have the qualifications of a mujtahid, it is not clear to me why they should be considered mujtahids by default, such as when it is said that someone is "the greatest living scholar of the sunna" any more than we could qualify a school-child on the playground as a physicist by saying, "He is the greatest physicist on the playground". Claims to Islamic knowledge do not come about by default. Slogans about "following the Qur'an and sunna" sound good in theory, but in practice it comes down to a question of scholarship, and who will sort out for the Muslim the thousands of shari'a questions that arise in his life. One eventually realizes that one has to choose between following the ijtihad of a real mujtahid, or the ijtihad of some or another "movement leader", whose qualifications may simply be a matter of reputation, something which is often made and circulated among people without a grasp of the issues.

What comes to many people's minds these days when one says "Salafis" is bearded young men arguing about deen. The basic hope of these youthful reformers seems to be that argument and conflict will eventually wear down any resistance or disagreement to their positions, which will thus result in purifying Islam. Here, I think education, on all sides, could do much to improve the situation.

The reality of the case is that the mujtahid Imams, those whose task it was to deduce the Islamic shari'a from the Qur'an and hadith, were in agreement about most rulings; while those they disagreed about, they had good reason to, whether because the Arabic could be understood in more than one way, or because the particular Qur'an or hadith text admitted of qualifications given in other texts (some of them acceptable for reasons of legal methodology to one mujtahid but not another), and so forth.

Because of the lack of hard information in English, the legitimacy of scholarly difference on shari'a rulings is often lost sight of among Muslims in the West. For example, the work Fiqh al-sunna by the author Sayyid Sabiq, recently translated into English, presents hadith evidences for rulings corresponding to about 95 percent of those of the Shafi'i school. Which is a welcome contribution, but by no means a "final word" about these rulings, for each of the four schools has a large literature of hadith evidences, and not just the Shafi'i school reflected by Sabiq's work. The Maliki school has the Mudawwana of Imam Malik, for example, and the Hanafi school has the Sharh ma'ani al-athar [Explanation of meanings of hadith] and Sharh mushkil al-athar [Explanation of problematic hadiths], both by the great hadith Imam Abu Jafar al-Tahawi, the latter work of which has recently been published in sixteen volumes by Mu'assasa al-Risala in Beirut. Whoever has not read these and does not know what is in them is condemned to be ignorant of the hadith evidence for a great many Hanafi positions.

What I am trying to say is that there is a large fictional element involved when someone comes to the Muslims and says, "No one has understood Islam properly except the prophet Mohammed  and early Muslims, and our sheikh". This is not valid, for the enduring works of first-rank Imams of hadith, jurisprudence, Qur'anic exegesis, and other shari'a disciplines impose upon Muslims the obligation to know and understand their work, in the same way that serious comprehension of any other scholarly field obliges one to have studied the works of its major scholars who have dealt with its issues and solved its questions. Without such study, one is doomed to repeat mistakes already made and rebutted in the past.

Most of us have acquaintances among this Umma who hardly acknowledge another scholar on the face of the earth besides the Imam of their madhhab, the Sheikh of their Islam, or some contemporary scholar or other. And this sort of enthusiasm is understandable, even acceptable (at a human level) in a non-scholar. But only to the degree that it does not become ta'assub or bigotry, meaning that one believes one may put down Muslims who follow other qualified scholars. At that point it is haram, because it is part of the sectarianism (tafarruq) among Muslims that Islam condemns.

When one gains Islamic knowledge and puts fiction aside, one sees that superlatives about particular scholars such as "the greatest" are untenable; that each of the four schools of classical Islamic jurisprudence has had many many luminaries. To imagine that all preceding scholarship should be evaluated in terms of this or that "Great Reformer" is to ready oneself for a big letdown, because intellectually it cannot be supported. I remember once hearing a law student at the University of Chicago say: "I'm not saying that Chicago has everything. Its just that no place else has anything." Nothing justifies transposing this kind of attitude onto our scholarly resources in Islam, whether it is called "Islamic Movement", "Salafism", or something else, and the sooner we leave it behind, the better it will be for our Islamic scholarship, our sense of reality, and for our deen.

(By: Sheikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller 1995)


Know your enemy!
No time to waste. Act now!
Tomorrow it will be too late
What You Don’t Know Can Kill You

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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2005 at 8:59pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

>>>I have no problem with my Salafi or Wahabbi relatives – But I feel this post should be moved to ‘Interfaith Dialogues’.<<<

You mean Intrafaith dialogue, i think you are right i will move it.

>>>
Having said that – here is the view of a Sufi scholar, which could of some interest to some of you. However, I am out of this ‘subject’.<<<

Yes the scholar is a sufi ie a person who practices tassawuf the science of ihsan, but that has nothing to do with the madhhabs since they deal with a different islamic science altogether ie Fiqh, he is more than qualified in this area also. So i dont see the relavance of pointing out he is a sufi shakh, following a madhhab is agreed upon by concensus in islam among all the great scholars of all time.


Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote jalillah Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2005 at 11:19pm
no comment rihgt now....
May Allah Bless those who seek the truth......Allah Stands Alone in truth..
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Quote Brother123 Replybullet Posted: 11 May 2005 at 11:04pm

I rembersome of  my relatives who are sufi asked their sufi scholars what is a shia.

The sufi scholar said. If a dog  drings from the sea the water of the sea does not become impure. But if a shia drinks water form the sea the whole sea becomes impure.

Just hope rehmat you did not drink from the sea. Make the whole water impure for the sufis.

 Since you like  to quote from sufis about sunnis. I thought i would quote some thing form your dear sufis about shias.

So all those sufis out better start be more careful what water you drink.

I am  sunni not sufi i dont have problem with a shia drinking water form the atlantic ocean.

 

 

 

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Quote new_muslimah Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2005 at 1:40pm

dear brothers and sisters Salamun alaykum.I am a ne-revert to Islam after a long period of soul searching and reading. Islam is the most beautiful message of GOD.

After reading in-depth , after what happened after the demise of Holy Prophet (PBUH) , i concluded, that IMAM ALI is the rightly appointed successor to Holy Prophet and the followers of Imam Ali , have thus direct link to Holy Prophet.

Look at what Muawiyah did to Imam Ali....hundreds of people killed in Siffeen in the war against the RIGHTLY Appointed successor of Prophet. But I am amazed how my Sunni brothers and sisters just ignore this huge fact and still respect this person (muawiya)

Even if you look at the world today, True Islam is being represented by the teachings of Islamic Revolution in iran.

We have same book, same Allah, same Kaaba, same Prophet, but unfortunately, i have seen Salafis, curse and swear and label as Kafir 'other muslims". I have not met a single Shia brother or sister who will call others Kafir.

All this has led me to study Shia school deeply and I conlcuded that SHIAISM is the mainstream and the direct connection to Holy Prophet.

Another mind-boggling fact :

SON of Imam Ali, hussain gave up everything in karabala , when he was killed by Yazeed son of Muawiya.

But HOW MANY SUNNIS do we know who even respect and consider Imam hussain as a HERO of islam and condemn the killer army of yazid?

Despite the difference my shia -contacts urge me to join hands with other muslims based on our common points.

 



Allah is the Light of the Universe.
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