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AbRah2006
 
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Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2006 at 5:25am

Yankovich's statement:   bmz:  Well, thanks for that explanantion.  But, then that means that Jesus did not exist before He was in Mary's womb - right?  What about the Bible vs. that says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  Do you think that this is correct (probably not if you are Muslim), or was added to the manuscript, or is a corruption.  Or do you believe that the Apostle John really, really wrote that? And, if he did, was he wrong?

______________________________________________________

My response: 

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Comment: But how could Jesus be with God in the beginning as this verse says if Jesus was created by God? And how could Jesus be "a god" and yet be with God during the creation, if God was speaking truthfully in Dt.32:39 when he said, "there are no gods with me"?

However, these statements were not made by Jesus Christ, nor were they attributed to him by the author of the Gospel according to John. Consequently, these verses do not constitute evidence for Jesus’ divinity, especially considering the doubts held by Christian scholars about the Fourth Gospel. The Bible scholars who authored The Five Gospels said: “The two pictures painted by John and the synoptic gospels (i.e., the Gospels of Matthew, Mark & Luke) cannot both be historically accurate. Note:The Gospel of John differs so radically from the other three Gospels (the Synoptic Gospels) that its authenticity is in doubt...The words attributed to Jesus in the Fourth Gospel are the creation of the evangelist for the most part, and reflect the developed language of John’s Christian community.”(The Five Gospels, p. 10)



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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BMZ
 
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2006 at 5:27am

Hi Yank,

I liked your footnote slogan.

You wrote: "bmz:  Well, thanks for that explanantion.  But, then that means that Jesus did not exist before He was in Mary's womb - right?"

That is right.

"What about the Bible vs. that says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  Do you think that this is correct (probably not if you are Muslim), or was added to the manuscript, or is a corruption.  Or do you believe that the Apostle John really, really wrote that? And, if he did, was he wrong?"

All I can say is that John wrote that himself and that seems like his own thought as we do not hear of this from any other person or gospel writers. That is quite an imagination of his own and even God and Jesus would have been surprised.

To me, it does not seem correct. Even if I were a non-Muslim, I would not have accepted it as good English.

In the beginning there was only God, would have been more proper and acceptable. Not a single word or Word could have existed before God. If it did, then God was beaten or overtaken by the word or the Word and God became a second fiddle. 

If the word or the Word became God, then God lost all his Highness, Glory, Godliness and became a useless God.

We do not even know who this John was. There were so many Johns, Matthews, Marks and Lukes and none of these writers signed his books.

This John sounds more like a philosopher engaged to write a gospel (which he wrote on his own), injecting his own word or Word, which was not at all a thought or a word of or from Jesus. I am surprised where did he get that idea from?

 

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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2006 at 5:30am

AbRah,

Looks like a nice early morning in the US. Only a difference of two minutes between the postings.

Salaam Alaikum

BMZ

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Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2006 at 5:46am
W/salam to bmzsp....I like your statements very much. I always read  and appreciate them...May success be your companion always...Ameen.
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2006 at 6:04am

Wa Alaikum Assalaam, AbRah

Thanks for your kind words. As I was explaining to our friend Yankovich, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.", this was written with the thought or the word in John, the writer's mind that he had to explain God and God Jesus to his people. The other three gospel writers did not write anything like that.

His being the last to be chosen gospel, he had to start with something forceful. Remember there were hundreds of learned men and priests from various areas who were trying to compromise on who Jesus really was and they were debating. I think John borrowed the idea from the start of Genesis and coined his own opening statement, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." 

What John says can also mean that God in the very beginning had thought of having another God and that thought "the Word" was in God's mind. the reason I say this is: NO Word or word or anything could have existed before God. So John might have preferred to use Word instead of Thought. Because if he had used the word Thought, it would not have impressed the Gentiles.

What do you think?

BMZ



Edited by bmzsp
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Quote Abednego Replybullet Posted: 23 May 2006 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by AbRah2006

My response: 

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Comment: But how could Jesus be with God in the beginning as this verse says if Jesus was created by God? And how could Jesus be "a god" and yet be with God during the creation, if God was speaking truthfully in Dt.32:39 when he said, "there are no gods with me"?

However, these statements were not made by Jesus Christ, nor were they attributed to him by the author of the Gospel according to John. Consequently, these verses do not constitute evidence for Jesus’ divinity, especially considering the doubts held by Christian scholars about the Fourth Gospel. The Bible scholars who authored The Five Gospels said: “The two pictures painted by John and the synoptic gospels (i.e., the Gospels of Matthew, Mark & Luke) cannot both be historically accurate. Note:The Gospel of John differs so radically from the other three Gospels (the Synoptic Gospels) that its authenticity is in doubt...The words attributed to Jesus in the Fourth Gospel are the creation of the evangelist for the most part, and reflect the developed language of John’s Christian community.”(The Five Gospels, p. 10)



The same way one can play Chess with himelf, or be angry with himself.

I'm sure you realize the Five Gospels is a Jesus Seminar publication. The Jesus Seminar is as far from real Christianity as Nation of Islam is from what you practice. Unless you are willing to offer the credibility to NOI and apply it to Islam it is unfair and highly dishonest to compare Traditional Christianity to the Jesus Seminar. I know it is important to you to disprove the Trinity but unless you can do it legit and honestly it doen't mean a thing.
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2006 at 5:01am

Hey Abed,

I hope AbRah will try to do it legit!  AbRah is a novice.

Since you mentioned the Jesus Seminars, is this true of Thomas Jefferson?

"There is nothing new about this approach in New Testament scholarship. Thomas Jefferson, a great American patriot and president did the same thing in the late 1700s with almost identical results. He admired Jesus as a moral man, but like the Jesus Fellows, he assumed all supernatural and extraordinary elements in the Gospels were unreliable and could not be true. With scissors and paste, Jefferson cut out of the Gospels any and everything which contravened the laws of nature and his own reason.

When he had finished his project, only 82 columns of the four Gospels out of his King James Bible remained from an original 700. The other nine-tenths lay on the cutting room floor. Jefferson entitled his creation The Life and Morals of Jesus, and his book ended with the words, "There laid they Jesus . . . and rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulcher and departed."(2)"

Good to see you here, Mate.

BMZ

 

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Quote Abednego Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2006 at 7:23am

Yes that's true. Here is a link to the book you can down load it.

http://nothingistic.org/library/jefferson/jesus/ 

Bear in mind, Jefferson was a Deist, he was not a Christian. He rejected out of hand revealed religion.

 

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