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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
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salman
 
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Quote salman Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2006 at 5:14am
Originally posted by Suleyman

Yes this is why i say we should not comment on the name of Bible,

U are right that we can't:it is just not possible to differentiate the verses from God and those which have been written by men

Then we should keep our silence bacs our words can come accross to a real ayat in the Bible..

Wa salaam...

50,000 errors in the Bible are the errors committed by men, and NOT by God, i hope you understand what i am trying to say brother.

It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.
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BMZ
 
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2006 at 6:17am

Salman,

Suleyman has rightly said,"Brother i am talking about the ayats in the Bible,not the whole Bible...some ayats are still same and you can't reject,you must believe and trust but act with Qur'an...this is the issue,the point..."

You can find many verses in the Bible which are common with Qur'aan. For example the Ten Commandments, goodness to parents, righteousness, love and the Laws and repentance to God Almighty.

Although the Qur'aan never mentions the Bible by name, but you can find parts of the Torah, Injeel and Zaboor written in it.

The title of the post will naturally result in some adverse comments and that should be understandable. 

Best Regards & Salaam Alaikum

BMZ

 



Edited by bmzsp
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DavidC
 
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2006 at 6:56am
Salman, I did not make up the hadith.  It came from our own IslamiCity hadith search.  007.072.799 for your reference.  Perhaps it is one of the less reliable hadith; I don't know.

I do not think you are accusing me of forgery.  I read your post as showing genuine surprise and curiosity.  We have had plenty of collegial conversations, and am certain your statement was not accusing me of blasphemy.  I take your statement as a product of English language skills and friendly academic challenge.

I want to be helpful by finding items of interest, but I do not want to take things out of context or imply an incorrect interpretation.  Perhaps you could help by following up on my citation and finding out how Muslim scholars interpret it.

On the other Qu'ranic ayat,  I know how Muslims feel about biblical discrepancies.  Muhummad and the Qu'ran, however, came four centuries after the biblical texts were set at Nicea and I believe we can find copies identical to those in use in 8th century Arabia. 

God in his wisdom surely knew which versions of the Book were used by the Prophet Muhummad and those were the ones referred to in Qu'ran.  Your theory about the biblical discrepancies would only make sense if God himself was unaware of the problem when the Qu'ran was dictated and of course the existence of biblical error is directly stated in Qu'ran.

I assume "dispute by better means" indicates to compare Qu'ran with Bible, and to use the Qu'ran as a criterion to discern error in the Bible.  Since the Christian schools of thought extant in the 8th century did not read the Bible literally as Muslims do the Qu'ran the injunction to "believe" in the Bible would not mean to trust every word.  Perhaps  Muslims are supposed to read historical Biblke as they do Psalms - non-literal, poetic literature.

I suspect there are additional ayat that provide information not yet brought to the discussion by either of us, and that these will make the meaning clear.  Again, if you could help by providing some research in addition to opinion it would be helpful.  I realize my efforts are only dabbling in Islam and I post them as a request for someone to help me understand authentic tasfeer, not to somehow promote my amateur understanding as being somehow correct or even on point.

I also suspect your feelings that these ayat do not "fit" somehow is probably correct.  Hopefully a little scholarship by you or other Muslim members will clear this up for all of us.
David C.
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2006 at 7:13am

David,

I did translate this when requesting ABrah on another thread:

"Wa-laa tujaa-day-lu ahlal-kitaab-ay il-la bil-lati hya ahsano, il-lal-lazeena zala-mu min-hum." (Part of Verse 46 Surah 29 Al-An-kaboot),

which means: "Argue with the people of the books in the best possible manner, excluding those who are extremely harsh."

(The above translation is done by me, so please do not compare with various English translations)

Best Regards

BMZ

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Quote salman Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2006 at 7:23am
Originally posted by bmzsp

David,

I did translate this when requesting ABrah on another thread:

"Wa-laa tujaa-day-lu ahlal-kitaab-ay il-la bil-lati hya ahsano, il-lal-lazeena zala-mu min-hum." (Part of Verse 46 Surah 29 Al-An-kaboot),

which means: "Argue with the people of the books in the best possible manner, excluding those who are extremely harsh."

(The above translation is done by me, so please do not compare with various English translations)

No offence. bmzsp, you should not take the Qur'an according to your convenience by making your own translations. are you a mufti or an islamic scholar? please, ... don't do such things, refer to the translations of the translators like yousuf and then quote the translations.



Edited by peacemaker
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2006 at 8:10am

Salman,

From you: "No offence. bmzsp, you should not take the Qur'an according to your convenience by making your own translations. are you a mufti or an islamic scholar? please, please... don't do such things, refer to the translations of the translators like yousuf and then quote the translations."

I am flabbergasted by your comments. Since you believe that translation should come only from translators, please tell me which translation of the following verses is correct and which one would you accept?

Surah 38 Su'ad: Translation by N. J. Dawood

V38:30-33 "We gave Solomon to david; and he was a good and faithful servant. When, one evening, his prancing steeds were ranged before him, he said: 'MY love for good things has distracted me from the remembrance of my Lord; for now the sun has vanished behind the veil of darkness. Bring me back my chargers!' And with this he fell to hacking their legs and necks.

Now look at the translation of the same verses by Yusuf Ali:

"To David, We gave Solomon (for a son), How excellent in Our Service! Ever did he turn (to Us)! Behold, there were brought before him, at eventide, Coursers of the highest breeding, and swift of foot; and he said,"Truly Do I love the love of Good with a view to the glory of my Lord"--until (the sun) was hidden in the veil (of night): "Bring them back to me." Then he began to pass his hand over (their) legs and their necks."

Dawood's translation suggests that Solomon was so mad and furious upon missing his prayers that he chopped their legs and necks, killing them all.

Yusuf Ali's translation suggests that he did his prayers first and then patted their necks and ran his hands down their legs lovingly.

Who do you believe is correct. This striking difference in opinion led me to learn Arabic and Qur'aan sixteen years ago. Now I don't need a translation.

If you wish to understand Qur'aan, it's best if you read and understand it in Arabic for it's language in Arabic is given by God Almighty and it's translation is done by men. I have already had enough of the Muftis and scholars, who differ in opinions among themselves.

By the way, thanks for your response. I would love to hear from you which translation would you go with?

Salaam Aalikum

BMZ



Edited by bmzsp
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Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2006 at 9:03am
Dear Salman....There are so many errors and contradictions in the Bible. I will like to expose them if the Christians dare enough to ask me to expose them!  I will expose one by one if they like to debate!

Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Quote salman Replybullet Posted: 20 May 2006 at 9:03am
Originally posted by bmzsp

Salman,

From you: "No offence. bmzsp, you should not take the Qur'an according to your convenience by making your own translations. are you a mufti or an islamic scholar? please, please... don't do such things, refer to the translations of the translators like yousuf and then quote the translations."

I am flabbergasted by your comments. Since you believe that translation should come only from translators, please tell me which translation of the following verses is correct and which one would you accept?

Surah 38 Su'ad: Translation by N. J. Dawood

V38:30-33 "We gave Solomon to david; and he was a good and faithful servant. When, one evening, his prancing steeds were ranged before him, he said: 'MY love for good things has distracted me from the remembrance of my Lord; for now the sun has vanished behind the veil of darkness. Bring me back my chargers!' And with this he fell to hacking their legs and necks.

Now look at the translation of the same verses by Yusuf Ali:

"To David, We gave Solomon (for a son), How excellent in Our Service! Ever did he turn (to Us)! Behold, there were brought before him, at eventide, Coursers of the highest breeding, and swift of foot; and he said,"Truly Do I love the love of Good with a view to the glory of my Lord"--until (the sun) was hidden in the veil (of night): "Bring them back to me." Then he began to pass his hand over (their) legs and their necks."

Dawood's translation suggests that Solomon was so mad and furious upon missing his prayers that he chopped their legs and necks, killing them all.

Yusuf Ali's translation suggests that he did his prayers first and then patted their necks and ran his hands down their legs lovingly.

Who do you believe is correct. This striking difference in opinion led me to learn Arabic and Qur'aan sixteen years ago. Now I don't need a translation.

If you wish to understand Qur'aan, it's best if you read and understand it in Arabic for it's language in Arabic is given by God Almighty and it's translation is done by men. I have already had enough of the Muftis and scholars, who differ in opinions among themselves.

By the way, thanks for your response. I would love to hear from you which translation would you go with?

Salaam Aalikum

BMZ

i would go for yusuf ali's translation as his translation is most used all over the world.

i just wanted to say that you should not make your own translations. you should refer to the translators and then prefer which one you would choose but you should not make your own translations.

It is better to be alone than to be in bad company.
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