IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: The Crucifixion of Jesus

abrah - you have not refuted anything ive said so far - it that because it exposed your lie so utterly. i shall return shortly, and deal with more of your lies

for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16

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Originally posted by fredifreeloader

Originally posted by AbRah2006

Here is my response to fredifreeloader

Whether you like them or not, Deuteronomy 31:25-29 and Jeremiah 8:8-9 are there right in the Bible to prove that the Bible is corrupted into a lie by its keepers!

It is very interesting to know that even you fredifreeloader
call the Bible a lie by quoting your own words: 'this is it with you people, one lie just leads to another, and you soon become enmeshed in deceit'!

Deceit? What deceit? I am quoting the verses of your own Bible and you call them the deceit!

according to you, (and you have now repeated it twice) these verses from deuteronomy 31: 25-29 prove that the bible has been corrupted into a lie. here are the verses:

25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD : 26 "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you. 27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! 28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to testify against them. 29 For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."

the only time the word "corrupt" occurs is in v. 29, and it says the children of israel would become corrupt. there is nothing here to indicate any corruption in the Word of God. in fact the verses clearly point to its preservation, because it says that the Holy Word would be kept to stand as a witness against them in their evil. and yet you claim it is proof that the Holy Word has been corrupted. what a lie!

you have obviously copied all this muck straight off some evil, antichrist website, without even checking anything youve read on it

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------

Here is my response to refute fredifreeloader's answer:

If the Bible is the Word of God , why does the Bible contradict itself by making so many contradictory statements . Allah is the All Wise God so He will not contradict His own Word so it must be the keepers of the Bible who corrupted the Bible into a lie!

Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death(Deuteronomy 31:25-29).The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted: Deutronomy 31:29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

'Deutronomy 31:29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you' means that the followers of Moses would become corrupt and they would corrupt the teachings of Moses.

I am not surprised to see how the followers of Moses corrupted themselves easily ....They even worshipped the Golden Calf when Moses was away for 40 days! And they had murdered the prophets of God and they even conspired with enemies to murder the Prophet Jesus and Prophet Muhammad.

The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

The entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption! "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

Here are some examples of the so many errors and contradictions of the Bible and I dare you fredifreeloader to refute them by using concrete proofs:

1. God is seen and heard
         Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
          Ex 24:9-11
        God is invisible and cannot be heard
         John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
2. God is tired and rests
         Ex 31:17/ Jer 15:6
        God is never tired and never rests
         Is 40:28

3. God is all powerful
         Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
       God is not all powerful
         Judg 1:19
4. God is unchangeable
         James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
        God is changeable
         Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
          Ex 33:1,3,17,14
5. God is the author of evil
          Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
         God is not the author of evil
          1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
6. God tempts men
          Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
         God tempts no man
          James 1:13
7. There is but one God
          Deut 6:4
         There is a plurality of gods
          Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7
8. Robbery commanded
          Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36
         Robbery forbidden
          Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15
9. The making of images forbidden
           Ex 20:4
         The making of images commanded
          Ex 25:18,20
10. Judging of others forbidden
          Matt 7:1,2
         Judging of others approved
          1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12
11. Christ taught non-resistance
          Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
         Christ taught and practiced physical resistance
          Luke 22:36/ John 2:15
12. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed
          Luke 12:4
         Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed
          John 7:1
13. Baptism commanded
          Matt 28:19
         Baptism not commanded
          1 Cor 1:17,14
14. Adultery forbidden
          Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4
         Adultery allowed
          Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3
15.   Man was created after the other animals
          Gen 1:25,26,27
         Man was created before the other animals
          Gen 2:18,19
16. Moses feared Pharaoh
          Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19
         Moses did not fear Pharaoh
          Heb 11:27
17. John the Baptist was Elias
          Matt 11:14
         John the Baptist was not Elias
          John 1:21
18. Christ was crucified at the third hour
          Mark 15:25
         Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
          John 19:14,15
19. Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave
          Matt 12:40
         Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
          Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9

20. Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at
         Jerusalem
          Luke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19
         Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee
          Matt 28:16,17
21. Christ is equal with God
           John 10:30/ Phil 2:5
          Christ is not equal with God
           John 14:28/ Matt 24:36

22. Jesus was all-powerful
           Matt 28:18/ John 3:35
          Jesus was not all-powerful
           Mark 6:5
23. The law was superseded by the Christian dispensation
           Luke 16:16/ Eph 2:15/ Rom 7:6
          The law was not superseded by the Christian dispensation
           Matt 5:17-19
24. Christ's mission was peace
           Luke 2:13,14
          Christ's mission was not peace
           Matt 10:34
25. Christ received not testimony from man
           John 5:33,34
          Christ did receive testimony from man
           John 15:27
26. Christ's witness of himself is true.
           John 8:18,14
          Christ's witness of himself is not true.
           John 5:31

Hey fredifreeloader...Are those words of the Bible the Word of God who says that His Word will last forever and that He is might to preserve it? Would you attribute those errors to God? If the Bible contained conflicting verses would you still consider it to be Holy? Most likely you will say of course not. God will not corrupt His own Word so it is the keepers of the Bible who corrupt the Bible into a lie !

That is why God sends the Holy Quran as His final revelation to all mankind through His last messenger the prophet Muhammad to replace the Bible, Torah etc!

Allah Himself has promised to guard the Qur’an: "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption) [Al-Qur’an 15:9]. The Quran is Allah's greatest blessing for you . It is the fulfillment of His promise to Adam and his descendants: 'there shall come to you guidance from Me, and whatsoever follows My Guidance no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow' (Quran al Baqarah 2:38).

Conclusion: (1) The Bible contains so many errrors and contradictions so it is not a reliable source.

(2) God sends Quran to all mankind through His last messenger Muhammad to replace the unreliable Bible.

Edited by AbRah2006

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)

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That is why God sends the Holy Quran as His final revelation to all mankind through His last messenger the prophet Muhammad to replace the Bible, Torah etc!

I think you are incorrect, AbRah. Didn't the Prophet specifically tell Muslims to honor the Injeel, Taurat and Psalms as well as the Qu'ran?

Certainly the Qu'ran has a divine purpose, but does not Islam truly believe it as an ammendment to the original scriptures given to the Abrahamic peoples and not a replacement?

I think you can successfully argue that these more ancient writings can be demonstrated to be imperfect, but your conclusions are overeaching and I believe they are refuted entirely by hadith.

David C.

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AbRah,

I want to thank you for this topic. Even though I do not like your tone or your choice of words, you have given the Christians an opportunity to correct your allegations, mistranslations and misunderstandings. You have also given the Muslims the opportunity to see our explanations and see how mistaken you are. Thanks.

God, indeed, does work in mysterious ways.

Peace

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Author	Message
fredifreeloader Guest Group Joined: 17 February 2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 456	Posted: 17 May 2006 at 6:10am
	*abrah* - you have not refuted anything ive said so far - it that because it exposed your lie so utterly. i shall return shortly, and deal with more of your lies
	for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
	IP Logged

fredifreeloader Guest Group Joined: 17 February 2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 456	Posted: 17 May 2006 at 6:16am
	*abrah* - you are so ignorant. there are two greek words translated as "tree" in the new testament - 1. dendron (a living, growing tree) 2. xulon (wood, a piece of wood, anything made of wood) - the second word is used to refer to the cross of our glorious Lord
	for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
	IP Logged

AbRah2006 Guest Group Joined: 13 May 2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 354	Posted: 17 May 2006 at 6:40am
	*Originally posted by fredifreeloader* *Originally posted by AbRah2006* Here is my response to fredifreeloader Whether you like them or not, Deuteronomy 31:25-29 and Jeremiah 8:8-9 are there right in the Bible to prove that the Bible is corrupted into a lie by its keepers! It is very interesting to know that even you fredifreeloader call the Bible a lie by quoting your own words: 'this is it with you people, one lie just leads to another, and you soon become enmeshed in deceit'! Deceit? What deceit? I am quoting the verses of your own Bible and you call them the deceit! *according to you, (and you have now repeated it twice) these verses from deuteronomy 31: 25-29* prove that the bible has been corrupted into a lie. here are the verses: 25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD : 26 "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you. 27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! 28 Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to testify against them. 29 For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made." the only time the word "corrupt" occurs is in v. 29, and it says the children of israel would become corrupt. there is nothing here to indicate any corruption in the Word of God. in fact the verses clearly point to its preservation, because it says that the Holy Word would be kept to stand as a witness against them in their evil. and yet you claim it is proof that the Holy Word has been corrupted. what a lie! you have obviously copied all this muck straight off some evil, antichrist website, without even checking anything youve read on it ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------- Here is my response to refute fredifreeloader's answer: If the Bible is the Word of God , why does the Bible contradict itself by making so many contradictory statements . Allah is the All Wise God so He will not contradict His own Word so it must be the keepers of the Bible who corrupted the Bible into a lie! Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death(Deuteronomy 31:25-29).The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted: Deutronomy 31:29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. 'Deutronomy 31:29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you' means that the followers of Moses would become corrupt and they would corrupt the teachings of Moses. I am not surprised to see how the followers of Moses corrupted themselves easily ....They even worshipped the Golden Calf when Moses was away for 40 days! And they had murdered the prophets of God and they even conspired with enemies to murder the Prophet Jesus and Prophet Muhammad. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption. The entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption! "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)" The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)" In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie! Here are some examples of the so many errors and contradictions of the Bible and I dare you fredifreeloader to refute them by using concrete proofs: 1. God is seen and heard Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/ Ex 24:9-11 God is invisible and cannot be heard John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16 2. God is tired and rests Ex 31:17/ Jer 15:6 God is never tired and never rests Is 40:28 3. God is all powerful Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26 God is not all powerful Judg 1:19 4. God is unchangeable James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19 God is changeable Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/ Ex 33:1,3,17,14 5. God is the author of evil Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25 God is not the author of evil 1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13 6. God tempts men Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13 God tempts no man James 1:13 7. There is but one God Deut 6:4 There is a plurality of gods Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7 8. Robbery commanded Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36 Robbery forbidden Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15 9. The making of images forbidden Ex 20:4 The making of images commanded Ex 25:18,20 10. Judging of others forbidden Matt 7:1,2 Judging of others approved 1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12 11. Christ taught non-resistance Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52 Christ taught and practiced physical resistance Luke 22:36/ John 2:15 12. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed Luke 12:4 Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed John 7:1 13. Baptism commanded Matt 28:19 Baptism not commanded 1 Cor 1:17,14 14. Adultery forbidden Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4 Adultery allowed Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3 15. Man was created after the other animals Gen 1:25,26,27 Man was created before the other animals Gen 2:18,19 16. Moses feared Pharaoh Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19 Moses did not fear Pharaoh Heb 11:27 17. John the Baptist was Elias Matt 11:14 John the Baptist was not Elias John 1:21 18. Christ was crucified at the third hour Mark 15:25 Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour John 19:14,15 19. Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave Matt 12:40 Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9 20. Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at Jerusalem Luke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19 Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee Matt 28:16,17 21. Christ is equal with God John 10:30/ Phil 2:5 Christ is not equal with God John 14:28/ Matt 24:36 22. Jesus was all-powerful Matt 28:18/ John 3:35 Jesus was not all-powerful Mark 6:5 23. The law was superseded by the Christian dispensation Luke 16:16/ Eph 2:15/ Rom 7:6 The law was not superseded by the Christian dispensation Matt 5:17-19 24. Christ's mission was peace Luke 2:13,14 Christ's mission was not peace Matt 10:34 25. Christ received not testimony from man John 5:33,34 Christ did receive testimony from man John 15:27 26. Christ's witness of himself is true. John 8:18,14 Christ's witness of himself is not true. John 5:31 Hey fredifreeloader...Are those words of the Bible the Word of God who says that His Word will last forever and that He is might to preserve it? Would you attribute those errors to God? If the Bible contained conflicting verses would you still consider it to be Holy? Most likely you will say of course not. God will not corrupt His own Word so it is the keepers of the Bible who corrupt the Bible into a lie ! That is why God sends the Holy Quran as His final revelation to all mankind through His last messenger the prophet Muhammad to replace the Bible, Torah etc! Allah Himself has promised to guard the Qur’an: "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption) [Al-Qur’an 15:9]. The Quran is Allah's greatest blessing for you . It is the fulfillment of His promise to Adam and his descendants: 'there shall come to you guidance from Me, and whatsoever follows My Guidance no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow' (Quran al Baqarah 2:38). Conclusion: (1) The Bible contains so many errrors and contradictions so it is not a reliable source. (2) God sends Quran to all mankind through His last messenger Muhammad to replace the unreliable Bible. Edited by AbRah2006
	God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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AbRah2006 Guest Group Joined: 13 May 2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 354	Posted: 17 May 2006 at 6:52am
	*Originally posted by fredifreeloader* *abrah* - you have not refuted anything ive said so far - it that because it exposed your lie so utterly. i shall return shortly, and deal with more of your lies ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ -------------- Hey fredifreeloader.....I dare you to refute my points that I had posted specially for you and I am waiting for your answers............It will be my pleasure to prove that you are a big liar! Edited by AbRah2006
	God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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DavidC Senior Member Joined: 20 September 2001 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2211	Posted: 17 May 2006 at 7:03am
	That is why God sends the Holy Quran as His final revelation to all mankind through His last messenger the prophet Muhammad to replace the Bible, Torah etc! I think you are incorrect, AbRah. Didn't the Prophet specifically tell Muslims to honor the Injeel, Taurat and Psalms as well as the Qu'ran? Certainly the Qu'ran has a divine purpose, but does not Islam truly believe it as an ammendment to the original scriptures given to the Abrahamic peoples and not a replacement? I think you can successfully argue that these more ancient writings can be demonstrated to be imperfect, but your conclusions are overeaching and I believe they are refuted entirely by hadith.
	David C.
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fredifreeloader Guest Group Joined: 17 February 2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 456	Posted: 17 May 2006 at 7:32am
	*abrah* - i have already, in the short time ive had, dared to utterly refute and expose two of your lies. (and other people have already done much more). deuteronomy 31: 29 does not mean that they would corrupt the law of God, it means that, being corrupt themselves, they would depart from it. it does not mean that the holy Word of God we have now is anything other that the original Word of God
	for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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George Senior Member Joined: 14 April 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 406	Posted: 17 May 2006 at 8:14am
	AbRah, I want to thank you for this topic. Even though I do not like your tone or your choice of words, you have given the Christians an opportunity to correct your allegations, mistranslations and misunderstandings. You have also given the Muslims the opportunity to see our explanations and see how mistaken you are. Thanks. God, indeed, does work in mysterious ways. Peace
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George Senior Member Joined: 14 April 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 406	Posted: 17 May 2006 at 8:17am
	*Originally posted by AbRah2006* I will refute all of your statements as soon as possible one by one. However I will refute one of your statements ( I quote) ' The tree is the cross. The Romans made their crosses from trees. ' My comment: George you are contradicting your own words ...How can you say that the tree is the cross? Can you say the burger is the chicken ? Is the cow the beef? Is the pig the pork? Why don't you call the cross the tree? The burger the chicken? The pig the pork? Is a wooden house a tree to you George? We can say that apple is a tree...Can we say that a cross is a tree? I think it is funny to see you refuting your own statement by saying 'The Romans made their crosses from trees.' after you had made the 1st statement ' The tree is the cross'....Even you contradict your own word so the contradictions of the Bible do exist! Crosses were made out of trees, AbRah2006. The crosses were made out of wood. Wood comes from trees. Get it? Here is an article that might help you through your confusion. http://www.wcg.org/lit/booklets/risen/risen3.htm Peace
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