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AbRah2006
 
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bullet Posted: 16 May 2006 at 4:32pm

Servetus's statement: Sorry.  Alibaba has not “asked permission” to start such a thread.  This is the second time (that I have read) where, because you have evidently  encountered slander by non-Muslims on other boards, in the media, etc.,  you seem in effect to specifically accuse (first) George and (now) Alibaba of being given to slander here, at IC.   Please produce your proof.  Consider using the “Quote” feature of this board and highlight any slanderous comment that they, George, Alibaba (or any of us non-Muslims) have made.  That way, the comment can be scrutinized and the originator of the comment could also have an opportunity, if necessary, to explain him or herself.  Perhaps that way communications could improve. 

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------

Here is what Alibaba has written to me : Also, I'd like to point out that I take great exception to the thread being titled "the crucifixion" is a "lie."  I consider this an insult to Christianity, and expect the moderators here to forthwith edit the title.  Would Christians be allowed, for instance, to post a thread called "The Quran is a Lie?"

Servetus's statement: Sorry.  Alibaba has not “asked permission” to start such a thread.  This is the second time (that I have read) where, because you have evidently  encountered slander by non-Muslims on other boards, in the media, etc.,  you seem in effect to specifically accuse (first) George and (now) Alibaba of being given to slander here, at IC.  

My comment: The words that say (I am quoting Alibaba's statement) 'I consider this an insult to Christianity, and expect the moderators here to forthwith edit the title.  Would Christians be allowed, for instance, to post a thread called "The Quran is a Lie?" ' have refuted Servetus' allegation! The words of Alibaba is enough for me to say that he is threatening me for my article! He is afraid of my articles because truth hurt Alibaba badly! To Servetus... I would to say that I am not slandering everybody because my answers are based on their own statement!



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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Patty
 
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bullet Posted: 16 May 2006 at 7:16pm

Huh???  Does someone have a language barrier, or am I missing something?

God's Peace,

Patty

Patty

I don't know what the future holds....but I know who holds the future.
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AbRah2006
 
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bullet Posted: 16 May 2006 at 7:46pm

George's statement: Answer:  The tree is the cross.  The Romans made their crosses from trees. 

------------------------------------------------------------ ------

Here is my response to George's statements:

I will refute all of your statements as soon as possible one by one. However I will refute one of your statements ( I quote) ' The tree is the cross.  The Romans made their crosses from trees.  '

My comment: George you are contradicting your own words ...How can you say that the tree is the cross? Can you say the burger is the chicken ? Is the cow the beef? Is the pig the pork?  Why don't you call the cross the tree? The burger the chicken? The pig the pork? Is a wooden house a tree to you George? We can say that apple is a tree...Can we say that a cross is a tree?

I think it is funny to see you refuting your own statement by saying 'The Romans made their crosses from trees.' after you had made the 1st statement ' The tree is the cross'....Even you contradict your own word so the contradictions of the Bible do exist!



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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bullet Posted: 16 May 2006 at 8:14pm

To Patty, Alibaba, Serventus, George ... I have read all of your articles and statements and I find that some of them are slandering Islam...As a Muslim I feel that I am being offended by your articles and statements but I never ask anybody to delete yours because I am not a coward! After all I am a gentleman.

I give some examples of the articles and statements made by you that offend Muslims like me:

1) I quote George's statement:YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! I can find no evidence that the Jews ever called Uzair a son of Allah, not from Christian sources and not from Jewish sources.  I contacted a Jewish scholar and he said the same thing.

My comment: This George's article or statement has convinced me that George try to slander Quran by saying that it lies. For your knowlegede Uzair (Ezra) was a learned man of the Torah and his knowledge of the Torah had convinced some Jews to call Uzair (Ezra) a son of God for they thought he was very closed to God like a son to a father for having good knowlegde of the Torah after it was destroyed by the invaders.

2) I quote Alibaba's statement: Why does Mohammed confuse Mary, the mother of Jesus, with Miriam, the sister of Aaron and Moses?  It seems to me that Mohammed got his Marys mixed up to say the very least.

My comment: This Alibaba's statement or article tries to slander Quran by saying that Quran and Muhammad lie about Mary. The Bible is not a reliable source so I don't trust it. I belive in the Quran because Quran never contradicts itself!

Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death(Deuteronomy 31:25-29).The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted.  The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

The entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption!  "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie(From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

Here are some examples of the so many errors and contradictions of the Bible and I dare you Alibaba to refute them by using concrete proofs:

1.  God is seen and heard
         Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
          Ex 24:9-11
        God is invisible and cannot be heard
         John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16

2.  God is tired and rests
         Ex 31:17/ Jer 15:6
        God is never tired and never rests
         Is 40:28

3.  God is all powerful
         Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
       God is not all powerful
         Judg 1:19

4.  God is unchangeable
         James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
        God is changeable
         Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
          Ex 33:1,3,17,14

5.  God is the author of evil
          Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
         God is not the author of evil
          1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13

6.  God tempts men
          Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
         God tempts no man
          James 1:13

7.  There is but one God
          Deut 6:4
         There is a plurality of gods
          Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

8.  Robbery commanded
          Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36
         Robbery forbidden
          Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15

9.  The making of images forbidden
           Ex 20:4
         The making of images commanded
          Ex 25:18,20

10.  Judging of others forbidden
          Matt 7:1,2
         Judging of others approved
          1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12

11.  Christ taught non-resistance
          Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
         Christ taught and practiced physical resistance
          Luke 22:36/ John 2:15

12.  Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed
          Luke 12:4
         Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed
          John 7:1

13.  Baptism commanded
          Matt 28:19
         Baptism not commanded
          1 Cor 1:17,14

14.  Adultery forbidden
          Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4
         Adultery allowed
          Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3

15.   Man was created after the other animals
          Gen 1:25,26,27
         Man was created before the other animals
          Gen 2:18,19

16.  Moses feared Pharaoh
          Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19
         Moses did not fear Pharaoh
          Heb 11:27

17.  John the Baptist was Elias
          Matt 11:14
         John the Baptist was not Elias
          John 1:21

18.  Christ was crucified at the third hour
          Mark 15:25
         Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
          John 19:14,15

19.  Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave
          Matt 12:40
         Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
          Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9

20.  Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at    
         Jerusalem
          Luke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19
         Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee
          Matt 28:16,17

21.  Christ is equal with God
           John 10:30/ Phil 2:5
          Christ is not equal with God
           John 14:28/ Matt 24:36
    

22.  Jesus was all-powerful
           Matt 28:18/ John 3:35
          Jesus was not all-powerful
           Mark 6:5

23. The law was superseded by the Christian dispensation
           Luke 16:16/ Eph 2:15/ Rom 7:6
          The law was not superseded by the Christian dispensation
           Matt 5:17-19

24. Christ's mission was peace
           Luke 2:13,14
          Christ's mission was not peace
           Matt 10:34

25. Christ received not testimony from man
           John 5:33,34
          Christ did receive testimony from man
           John 15:27

26. Christ's witness of himself is true.
           John 8:18,14
          Christ's witness of himself is not true.
           John 5:31

Hey Alibaba...Are those words of the Bible the Word of God who says that His Word will last forever and that He is might to preserve it? Would you attribute those errors to God? If the Bible contained conflicting verses would you still consider it to be Holy? Most likely you will say of course not. God will not corrupt His own Word so it is the keepers of the Bible who corrupt the Bible into a lie !

That is why God sends the Holy Quran as His final revelation to all mankind through His last messenger the prophet Muhammad to replace the  Bible, Torah etc!

Allah Himself has promised to guard the Qur’an: "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption) [Al-Qur’an 15:9]. The Quran is Allah's greatest blessing for you . It is the fulfillment of His promise to Adam and his descendants: 'there shall come to you guidance from Me, and whatsoever follows My Guidance no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow' (Quran  al Baqarah 2:38).

Conclusion: (1) The Bible contains so many errrors and contradictions so it is not a reliable source.

(2) God sends Quran to all mankind through His last messenger Muhammad to replace the unreliable Bible.

 

 

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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AbRah2006
 
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bullet Posted: 17 May 2006 at 2:43am

Patty's statement: Why is this person continually allowed by the moderator(s) to insult Christians and their beliefs?  We are very careful not to say anything which would be considered an insult to Islam.  Why is that not reciprocated on this board?  Are you people still teenagers?  Are you unable to behave like adults and carry on adult dialogue and debate? 

............................................................ .....................................

I quote Patty's statements : (1) Christianity teaches that Jesus was crucified. All four Gospels record the crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension.  But Muhammad and the Quran say that Christ was not crucified.  Muhammad appeared on the scene about 600 years after Jesus.  Muhammad claimed to receive 'revelations' from Allah, given to him through Gabriel.  One of Muhammad's revelations was that Jesus was not crucified.  (2) CONCLUSION: Jesus Christ was crucified.  All of the known evidence supports and corroborates the crucifixion.  There is no legitimate reason doubting Christ’s crucifixion

My comment: Hey Patty don't you know that you are contradicting your own words? You said that I had insulted Christians and their beliefs by proving that the crucifixion of Jesus was a lie.

It is very interesting to know that it was you who posted the article 'CHRIST'S CRUCIFIXION' on 10 May 2006 at 5:55am to insult Islam by making such bad conclusion! I wrote and posted an article 'The Crucifixion of Jesus is a lie' on 15 May 2006 at 10:25am to prove that you were wrong but you were so arrogant for saying that I had insulted the Christians and their beliefs while you pretending to be a good person and condoning your own misdeeds! Do you know what hypocrite means?

I will refute your article soon!

 



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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bullet Posted: 17 May 2006 at 3:48am

George's statement: According to Roman time, the day ran from midnight to midnight.  The Jewish 24 hour period began in the evening at 6PM and the morning of that day began at 6AM.  Therefore, when Mark asserts that at the third hour Christ was crucified, this was about 9AM. John stated that Christ's trial was about the sixth hour.  This would place the trial before the crucifixion and this would not negate any testimony of the Gospel writers.  This fits with John's other references to time.For example, he speaks about Jesus being weary from His journey from His trip from Judea to Samaria at the "sixth hour" and asking fo r water from the woman at the well.  Considering the length of his trip, his weariness, and the normal evening time when people come to the well to drink and to water their animals, this fits better with 6PM, which is "the sixth hour" of the night by Roman time reckoning.  The same is true of John's reference to the tenth hour in John 1:39, which would be 10AM, a more likely time to be out preaching than 4AM.

............................................................ ................................

Here is my response to refute George's statement:

When (at what hour) was Jesus crucified?
Was Jesus crucified the day before or the day after the Passover meal? 

According to John Jesus was crucified on the day before the Passover meal : Jn.19:14-16 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified.

According to Mathew Jesus was crucified on the day after the Passover meal: Mark 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Mark 15:25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

The Gospels contradict themselves that proves that the Gospels are not  the reliable books so the crucifixion of Jesus is a lie. Can you win a case by giving contradictory statements to support your case in the court? Contradictions happen when the event is a fiction! If the crucifixion of Jesus is true how come the Gospels contradict one another? If the witnesses were honest and trustworthy, why did they give contradictory statements?

Why do you George lie to support your false claim that Jesus was crucified?  Aren't you ashamed of yourself?



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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bullet Posted: 17 May 2006 at 5:27am
Originally posted by George

Originally posted by AbRah2006

The contradictions of the Bible have proven that the crucifixion of Jesus is a hoax:

Comment:  No they don't. 

Originally posted by AbRah2006

(1)Christ was crucified at the third hour
          Mark 15:25
         Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
          John 19:14,15 

Answer:  Both Gospel writers are correct.  The difficulty is answered when you realize that each Gospel writer used a different time system.  John follows the Roman time system while Mark follows the Jewish time system.

According to Roman time, the day ran from midnight to midnight.  The Jewish 24 hour period began in the evening at 6PM and the morning of that day began at 6AM.  Therefore, when Mark asserts that at the third hour Christ was crucified, this was about 9AM.  John stated that Christ's trial was about the sixth hour.  This would place the trial before the crucifixion and this would not negate any testimony of the Gospel writers.  This fits with John's other references to time.  For example, he speaks about Jesus being weary from His journey from His trip from Judea to Samaria at the "sixth hour" and asking fo r water from the woman at the well.  Considering the length of his trip, his weariness, and the normal evening time when people come to the well to drink and to water their animals, this fits better with 6PM, which is "the sixth hour" of the night by Roman time reckoning.  The same is true of John's reference to the tenth hour in John 1:39, which would be 10AM, a more likely time to be out preaching than 4AM.

[QUOTE= AbRah2006]

(7) The Bible contradicts itself by saying:(a) Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Acts 10:39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree.

(b)Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

 Question: How could Jesus die at two different places (the tree and the cross) at the same time? 

Answer:  The tree is the cross.  The Romans made their crosses from trees.  The Romans did not hang criminals from trees, except in exceptional cases.  When they crucified, the Romans used some form of a cross—a platform that had a crossbar attached to the main vertical stake.  By New Testament times the Romans were using several different cross forms for crucifixion.  One was the so-called St. Anthony's cross, shaped like a T.  Another was called the Latin cross in which a horizontal crossbar intersected the upright bean somewhere along it upper half.  One of these two cross forms most likely was used for the execution of Jesus Christ. 

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------

Here is my response to George's answers:

I will refute all of your statements as soon as possible one by one. However I will refute one of your statements ( I quote) ' The tree is the cross.  The Romans made their crosses from trees.  '

My comment: George you are contradicting your own words ...How can you say that the tree is the cross? Can you say the burger is the chicken ? Is the cow the beef? Is the pig the pork?  Why don't you call the cross the tree? The burger the chicken? The pig the pork? Is a wooden house a tree to you George? We can say that apple is a tree...Can we say that a cross is a tree?

I think it is funny to see you refuting your own statement by saying 'The Romans made their crosses from trees.' after you had made the 1st statement ' The tree is the cross'....Even you contradict your own word so the contradictions of the Bible do exist!

When (at what hour) was Jesus crucified?
Was Jesus crucified the day before or the day after the Passover meal? 

According to John Jesus was crucified on the day before the Passover meal : Jn.19:14-16 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified.

According to Mathew Jesus was crucified on the day after the Passover meal: Mark 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Mark 15:25 And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.

The Gospels contradict themselves that proves that the Gospels are not  the reliable books so the crucifixion of Jesus is a lie. Can you win a case by giving contradictory statements to support your case in the court? Contradictions happen when the event is a fiction! If the crucifixion of Jesus is true how come the Gospels contradict one another? If the witnesses were honest and trustworthy, why did they give contradictory statements?

Why do you George lie to support your false claim that Jesus was crucified?  Aren't you ashamed of yourself?



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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bullet Posted: 17 May 2006 at 5:38am
To George...........I will refute your answers one by one. It is my pleasure to prove that you are wrong.
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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