Abby: The verses you site have absolutely nothing to do with changing the text of God's Words.  You need to hone your exegetical skills if your going to run with the big boys.  God over and over and over says that His Word will last forever and that He WILL preserve it.  Here is an interesting piece by Quennel Gale:

Does the Bible say that it is Corrupted?

We must first of all know that the entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption! GOD Almighty Said: "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

Osama Abdallah's theory of Bible corruption based on this verse is nothing more than wishful thinking. Lets show you how he misintepretes the english mistranslatation of this verse.

The Revised Standard Version makes even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

Lets read the content around this verse:

Even the stork in the sky knows her appointed seasons, and the dove, the swift and the thrush observe the time of their migration. But my people do not know the requirements of the LORD. "`How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. SINCE THEY HAVE REJECTED THE WORD OF THE LORD, WHAT KIND OF WISDOM DO THEY HAVE? Jeremiah 8:8-9

Even the stork in the heavens knows her times; and the turtledove, swallow, and crane keep the time of their coming; but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD."How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. The wise men shall be put to shame, they shall be dismayed and taken; lo, THEY HAVE REJECTED THE WORD OF THE LORD, and what wisdom is in them? Jeremiah 8:8-9 RSV

One who looks at the immediate content of these verses see that God poses a question about why the false scribes claim to be wise. Then in verse 9 it answers that question by saying BECAUSE THEY REJECTED THE WORD OF THE LORD (HIS LAW) WHAT TYPE OF WISDOM DO THEY HAVE. We see that there is no mention that these scribes corrupted the Bible. If the Bible was corrupted in verse 8, why is God calling it his word in verse 9? This is something Osama has failed to address.

The accusation that the scribes have falsified the Torah by their lying pens which would indicate that the Law was falsified by corrupting the text. Osama assumes that this is the only possible meaning since he is boguslly believes that the Bible has been corrupted.

But is this what Jeremiah meant? Did his hearers understand him to mean that the text of the Torah had been corrupted? Did the prophets after him agree that the Torah had been corrupted? In order to answer these questions we must look to Jeremiah and to the Holy Bible as a whole to see what indeed did Jeremiah mean.

"Say to them, 'This is what the LORD says: If you do not listen to me and follow MY LAW, which I have set before you, and if you do not listen to the words of my servants the prophets, whom I have sent to you again and again (though you have not listened) then I will make this house like Shiloh and this city an object of cursing among all the nations of the earth.'" Jeremiah 26:4-6

How could Israel follow the Law, i.e. the Torah, if it had been corrupted? This presupposes that the Torah was uncorrupt and available during the time of Jeremiah. Furthermore, since Jeremiah wrote Jeremiah 8:8 he would know best the meaning of the passage in question. Clearly, we see Jeremiah appealing to the availability of the Law in Jeremiah 26:4-6 implying that he did not believe that the scribes had corrupted the text.

The prophet Daniel writes:

"In the first year of Darius son of Xerxes (a Mede by descent), who was made ruler over the Babylonian kingdom- in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years. So I turned to the LORD and pleaded with him in prayer and petition, in fasting, and in sackcloth and ashes." Daniel 9:1-3

Daniel is reading Jeremiah 25:11, 12 and 29:10 where God predicts that Israel would be taken into captivity to Babylon for 70 years. After reading this, Daniel continues to pray and says:

"Therefore the curses and sworn judgments written in the Law of Moses, the servant of God, have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against you. You have fulfilled the words spoken against us and against our rulers by bringing upon us great disaster. Under the whole heaven nothing has ever been done like what has been done to Jerusalem. JUST AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE LAW OF MOSES, all this disaster has come upon us, yet we have not sought the favor of the LORD our God by turning from our sins and giving attention to your truth." Daniel 9:11b-13

In order for Daniel to appeal to what was written in the Law of Moses presupposes that an uncorrupt Torah was available during the time of Daniel. Furthermore, after having read Jeremiah Daniel never concludes that the Torah had been corrupted, put appeals to it as the inspired word of God. This would be a strange conclusion for Daniel to come to if Jeremiah 8:8 indeed meant that the text of the Torah had been corrupted during Jeremiah's time.

"They read from the Book of the Law of God, making it clear and giving the meaning so that the people could understand what was being read... On the second day... they gathered around Ezra the scribe to give attention to the words of the Law. They found written in the Law, which the LORD had commanded through Moses, that... Day after day, from the first day to the last, Ezra read from the Book of the Law of God..." Nehemiah 8:13-14,18

This occurred approximately 430 B.C. nearly 180 years after Jeremiah's temple address which took place in 609 or 608 B.C. (see Jeremiah 26:1). Again, in order for Ezra the scribe to be able to both read from the Law of Moses and expound it presupposes that a true, uncorrupt copy of the Torah was available at that time.

Finally, the Lord Jesus and his followers quoted from the Torah as we know it today and never assumed that it was corrupt. (cf. Matthew 4:4,7,10; 22:31-32; 1 Timothy 5:18) In fact, Jesus claimed that the Torah as it exists would not pass away until all was fulfilled:

"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." Matthew 5:18

If Jeremiah 8:8 does not mean that the text of the Torah had been corrupted what did Jeremiah mean by the statement that the lying pens of the scribes have falsified it? Jeremiah was referring to the written commentary of the scribes whereby they falsely interpreted the Law of God, leading people astray by their traditions. A similar situation arose between Jesus and the scribes and Pharisees:

"Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked, 'Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!' Jesus replied, 'And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?... Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 'these people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'" Matthew 15:1-3,6b-9

Jeremiah was rebuking the scribes for traditions that was leading the people astray and to rejecting the word of God. This can be seen from the passage that immediately follows:

"The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the LORD, what kind of wisdom do they have." Jeremiah 8:9

We see no evidence whatsoever about Jeremiah showing proof of the corruption of the Law. In fact the Bible expounds on this matter in showing that the Law is unchangable but that people and hypocrites add to it their own vain desires:

Hear now, O Israel, the decrees and laws I am about to teach you. Follow them so that you may live and may go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you. Deut. 4:1-2

Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. Deut 5:1

The Jews were commanded to follow the Law, and they even wrote them down to guard them from corruption:

Moses and the elders of Israel commanded the people: "Keep all these commands that I give you today. When you have crossed the Jordan into the land the LORD your God is giving you, set up some large stones and coat them with plaster. WRITE ON THEM ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW when you have crossed over to enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, a land flowing with milk and honey, just as the LORD, the God of your fathers, promised you. And when you have crossed the Jordan, set up these stones on Mount Ebal, as I command you today, and coat them with plaster. Build there an altar to the LORD your God, an altar of stones. Do not use any iron tool upon them. Build the altar of the LORD your God with fieldstones and offer burnt offerings on it to the LORD your God. Sacrifice fellowship offerings there, eating them and rejoicing in the presence of the LORD your God. AND YOU SHALL WRITE VERY CLEARLY ALL THE WORDS OF THIS LAW ON THESE STONES YOU HAVE SET UP." Then Moses and the priests, who are Levites, said to all Israel, "Be silent, O Israel, and listen! You have now become the people of the LORD your God. Obey the LORD your God and follow his commands and decrees that I give you today." Duet. 27:1-10

The law was so sacred until YHWH almighty would send plagues on people who'd disobeyed it:

If you do not carefully follow all the words of this law, WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK, and do not revere this glorious and awesome name--the LORD your God-- the LORD will send fearful plagues on you and your descendants, harsh and prolonged disasters, and severe and lingering illnesses. Duet. 28:58-58

Then the LORD your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The LORD will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your fathers, if you obey the LORD your God and keep his commands and decrees THAT ARE WRITTEN IN THIS BOOK OF THE LAW and turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Deut. 30:9-10

Notice that the Bible clearly says that the laws were written down. Therefore if they were corrupted as Osama claimed then every correct copy of the Law would have to be collected, burned and replaced with a new one without the people knowing!! So we ask Muslims such as Osama, when did this happen before Jeremiah? Show us some proof, however he can't since he can only quote verses out of context. Even in other places in the Bible after the supposed corruption of the law we see clearly that God's prophet's that are even mentioned in the Quran, attest to the law being with them:

They worshiped idols, though the LORD had said, "You shall not do this." The LORD warned Israel and Judah through all his prophets and seers: "Turn from your evil ways. Observe my commands and decrees, in accordance with the entire Law that I commanded your fathers to obey and that I delivered to you through my servants the prophets." But they would not listen and were as stiff-necked as their fathers, who did not trust in the LORD their God. 2 Kings 17:13-14

I will not again make the feet of the Israelites wander from the land I gave their forefathers, if only they will be careful to do everything I commanded them and will keep the WHOLE LAW that my servant Moses gave them." 2 Kings 21:8

Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the secretary, "I have found the Book of the Law in the temple of the LORD." He gave it to Shaphan, who read it. 2 Kings 22:8

Even before Jeremiah the law was well established and was never mentioned after being corrupted. So if Jeremiah claimed that the Bible was corrupted why is people after him being instructed by YHWH to still use it? Its because it never was corrupted. Read:

this Ezra came up from Babylon. He was a teacher well versed in the Law of Moses, which the LORD, THE GOD OF ISRAEL, HAD GIVEN. The king had granted him everything he asked, for the hand of the LORD his God was on him. Ezra 7:6

Artaxerxes, king of kings, To Ezra the priest, a teacher of the Law of the God of heaven: Greetings. Ezra 7:12

Not only do we see that after Jeremiah God was still using the law but we will let David, under the inspiration of YHWH (a great man in the Quran), finish with this about the law:

THE LAW OF THE LORD IS PERFECT, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are TRUSTWORTHY, making wise the simple. Psalm 19:7

Osama's lie about Jeremiah 8:8 is nothing more than a mere hoax.

See Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.

The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted. The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

When we look at the content around this verse we will see just how desperate Osama is. He lies by trying to make the people the Bible!! Read:

So Moses wrote down this song that day and taught it to the Israelites. The LORD gave this command to Joshua son of Nun: "Be strong and courageous, for you will bring the Israelites into the land I promised them on oath, and I myself will be with you." AFTER MOSES FINISHED WRITING IN A BOOK THE WORDS OF THIS LAW FROM BEGINNING TO END, he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD: "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. THERE IT WILL REMAIN AS A WITNESS AGAINST YOU. For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die! Assemble before me all the elders of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words in their hearing and call heaven and earth to testify against them. FOR I KNOW AFTER MY DEATH YOU ARE SURE TO BECOME UTTERLY CORRUPT and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."

Moses had already wrotten the Law down and he was to use it as a witness against the elders who were evil!!! Notice in this passage that after Moses death, it is the elders, not the law who will become corrupt. This is verified more when we see that "disaster will befall them since they did evil in the sight of the LORD". How can a book perform actions as a human being? This is something that Osama also has yet to address. He has intentially lied to make the elders the law, when the passage says that the law would be a witness and was already in the safety of the ark! Osama intentionally lied!! What ashame, can't prove bible corruption so you resort to bible misintepretation. Notice that this slander is found on most of his web pages!!!

Hence, If Dueteronomy 31:25-29 proves bible corruption as Osama claims how come verses after this one in books later following show the legitamcy of the law? Read:

He teaches your precepts to Jacob and YOUR LAW TO ISRAEL. He offers incense before you and whole burnt offerings on your altar. Deut 33:10

Notice that in the next chapter after Osama's claimed Bible corruption we see God talking about teaching the law to Israel!!

No one will be able to stand up against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you. "Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their forefathers to give them. Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go. DO NOT LET THIS BOOK OF THE LAW DEPART FROM YOUR MOUTH; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do EVERYTHING WRITTEN IN IT. Then you will be prosperous and successful. (Joshua 1:5-8)

If the law was already corrupted in Deuteronomy how come Joshua, which came later is explictedly told by Yahweh almighty that he must obey all the law that was written down with him? Simple, because the bible never was corrupted or would it ever be corrupted.

as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded the Israelites. He built it according to WHAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK of the Law of Moses--an altar of uncut stones, on which no iron tool had been used. On it they offered to the LORD burnt offerings and sacrificed fellowship offerings. There, in the presence of the Israelites, JOSHUA COPIED ON STONES THE LAW OF MOSES, WHICH HE HAD WRITTEN. All Israel, aliens and citizens alike, with their elders, officials and judges, were standing on both sides of the ark of the covenant of the LORD, facing those who carried it--the priests, who were Levites. Half of the people stood in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the LORD had formerly commanded when he gave instructions to bless the people of Israel. Afterward, Joshua read all the words of the law--the blessings and the curses--JUST AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW. There was not a word of all that Moses had commanded that Joshua did not read to the whole assembly of Israel, including the women and children, and the aliens who lived among them. (Joshua 8:31-35)

But be very careful to keep the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the LORD gave you: to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to obey his commands, to hold fast to him and to serve him with all your heart and all your soul." (Joshua 22:5)

God almighty is continuously telling his people to obey his command in his law after Dueteronomy 31:25-29. We see that Osama's theory is again a bogus lie propogated by his lackluster reading skills.

"Be very strong; be careful to OBEY ALL THAT IS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW of Moses, without turning aside to the right or to the left. (Joshua 23:6)

And Joshua recorded these things in the Book of the Law of God. Then he took a large stone and set it up there under the oak near the holy place of the LORD. "See!" he said to all the people. "This stone will be a witness against us. It has heard all the words the LORD has said to us. It will be a witness against you if you are untrue to your God." (Joshua 24:26-27)

The law was still uncorrupt long after the passage that Osama claimed and we see that it was taught over 1000 years later in Judah:

With them were certain Levites--Shemaiah, Nethaniah, Zebadiah, Asahel, Shemiramoth, Jehonathan, Adonijah, Tobijah and Tob-Adonijah--and the priests Elishama and Jehoram. They taught throughout Judah, TAKING WITH THEM THE BOOK OF THE LAW OF THE LORD; they went around to all the towns of Judah and taught the people. (2 Chron. 17:8-9)

With this ample evidence being shown lets expose Osama's misunderstading clearer about his claim of Deut 31:25-29 showing corruption:

See Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.

This verse particular is verse 29 which says:

For I know that after my death you are sure to become utterly corrupt and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."

However Osama violates his own word on his other web pages when he claims this about incomplete quoting:

This is bogus and unacceptable in the professional world of dialogues.

We wonder why he doesn't follow his own bogus word? However read verse 28 before verse 29:

ASSEMBLE BEFORE ME ALL THE ELDERS of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words IN THEIR HEARING and call heaven and earth to TESTIFY AGAINST THEM.

NOW READ VERSE 29 For I know that after my death YOU ARE SURE TO BECOME UTTERLY CORRUPT and to turn from the way I have commanded you. In days to come, disaster will fall upon you because you will do evil in the sight of the LORD and provoke him to anger by what your hands have made."

Verse 28 says Moses is testifying against the elders and then verse 29 says that they will become corrupt using the LAW as a witness against their corruption from the previous verses!!! Lets look at these verses compared with Joshua 24:26-28, to bring this point home:

AFTER MOSES FINISHED WRITING IN A BOOK THE WORDS OF THIS LAW FROM BEGINNING TO END, he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD: "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. THERE IT WILL REMAIN AS A WITNESS AGAINST YOU...ASSEMBLE BEFORE ME ALL THE ELDERS of your tribes and all your officials, so that I can speak these words IN THEIR HEARING and call heaven and earth to TESTIFY AGAINST THEM. For I know that after my death YOU ARE SURE TO BECOME UTTERLY CORRUPT and to turn from the way I have commanded you. (Deut. 31:24-26,28-29)

And Joshua recorded these things in the Book of the Law of God. Then he took a LARGE STONE and set it up there under the oak near the holy place of the LORD. "See!" he said to all the people. "THIS STONE WILL BE A WITNESS AGAINST US. It has heard all the words the LORD has said to us. IT WILL BE A WITNESS AGAINST YOU if you are untrue to your God." (Joshua 24:26-27)

Both Joshua and Moses performed the same functions and used the law as a witness against unbelievers. The Law isn't corrupted nor did the Bible ever say that it will be corrupted.

 

Edited by Alibaba

Also, I'd like to point out that I take great exception to the thread being titled "the crucifixion" is a "lie."  I consider this an insult to Christianity, and expect the moderators here to forthwith edit the title.  Would Christians be allowed, for instance, to post a thread called "The Quran is a Lie?"

Alibaba's statement: Also, I'd like to point out that I take great exception to the thread being titled "the crucifixion" is a "lie."  I consider this an insult to Christianity, and expect the moderators here to forthwith edit the title.  Would Christians be allowed, for instance, to post a thread called "The Quran is a Lie?"

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Hey Alibaba... Why are you so afraid of my article? Don't u have any guts to face it? You are a coward for asking the moderators here to forthwith edit the title! Don't you know that I am quoting the verses of your own Bible to prove my point that the crucifixion of Jesus is a lie? Don't you believe in your Bible? I dare you to refute all the Biblical verses that I use to support my point! Yeah the truth hurts you and you are afraid to face it!

I am not surprised to see you asking for permission to post a thread called "The Quran is a Lie?" because I have seen so many non-Muslims like you slander Islam, Allah, the prophet Muhammad and Muslims in the media and on the internet. I am not afraid of your threat for it will be my pleasure to refute all of your lies!

Why are the moderators allowing this person to personally and intentionally call another poster a BIGLIAR?  AbRAH is not here to discuss/debate. His intentions are quite less than honorable.  What if I were to call him a BIGLIAR?  I believe you need to treat all persons on this forum with equal dignity and respect.  This is NOT being done.  AbRAH is here to cause hard feelings, chaos, and hate.  He is not here to debate or to learn, or even really to express Islamic beliefs.  He is here to create great division amongst people of other faiths and Muslims.  By your lack of response, you are giving him the nod.  If you don't want people of other religions to participate on this message forum, just say so and we'll be gone.  If you DO want us to stay and discuss our religions, then give us equal respect and dignity.

Patty