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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: The Crucifixion of Jesus(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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Patty
 
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bullet Posted: 15 May 2006 at 7:13pm

Dear AbRAH,

I am not going to get into an ongoing debate with you, because it is obvious that you do not understand how to interpret the Bible.  You, through NO fault of your own, misunderstand and are taking many scriptures out of context.  Yes, Jesus lives.  His spirit is always with us if we are believers.  He lives because he resurrected, just as He said He would.  It is true the prisons are full of Christian zealots, they are also full of Muslims, and those from many religions.  I do know this, as I grew up on a federal prison reservation.  My father was a correctional officer, and I also went to work in the prison as a stenographer to the warden.  Which proves that humans from ALL faiths sin.  The prisons have beautiful chapels and churches, and there are religious men from every faith working there to see that these poor souls receive the religious guidance they require, and so desperately need.  My father loved people and spent many, many hours on his own time, counseling and offering help to anyone of these inmates who needed someone to talk with them.  He would have NEVER insulted anybody, no matter their faith, no matter their race.  He's 87 years old now, in a nursing home and very ill.  He has remained steadfast in his faith. 

I wish we could have a good talk, but I don't know how to approach you because there are so many things about Christianity and the Bible which are distorted to you.  As far as my feeling Allah must be saddened by what he sees here, since he is God, I'm sure He is saddened whenever His children fail to get along, and instead end up insulting each other in the name of religion. 

I refuse to do that.  It is not in my nature to be rude or insulting to anyone.....and especially never over religion.

Peace be with you,

Patty

Patty

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BMZ
 
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bullet Posted: 15 May 2006 at 9:33pm

Dear ABrah,

Salaam Alaikum

I am sorry, I have to interrupt again, dear brother.

Crucification of Jesus is not a hoax. Personally, I do not like the word Crucifixion which glorifies Crucification by making it extremely gory. The Jews and others in neighbouring regions also used to hang people up the trees. You will notice that Paul said, "They hung him up on a tree". Paul was a Jew who knew well what the Jews used to do.

Qur'aan confirms that there was a crucification which took place but it looked to people as if Jesus was being hung up or crucified but in fact, it was not Jesus who was really left on the Cross or the Tree and he was not killed. Qur'aan does not use the term Crucifixion which was a brutal way of killing a man.

Crucification was much nicer in the sense that a man would be hung up and left to die, without bothering the condemned man.

Crucifixion is like throwing salt nonstop to injury upon injury.  First whip the hell out of a person, tear apart his skin, then hammer him with steel chains containing balls and piercing nails, then asking the guy in that condition to carry an entire Cross structure, getting stoned by the spectators, dragging up the hill, then erecting the Cross followed by nailing his hands and feet and as if not enough, break his legs and then thrusting in a spear to make sure blood and water gushed out. This system described to show the suffering is all hoax.

We can discuss the reasonable doubts about this whole affair in the other topic and show that it was all a show, planned and staged by Signore Pilate and Signora Pilate.  Please keep an open mind and remember that there were corrupt Jews, corrupt Centurions, corrupt Commanders and corrupt governors.

Best Regards

BMZ



Edited by bmzsp
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Patty
 
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bullet Posted: 16 May 2006 at 5:52am

BMZ, I am amazed that you said this in an attempt to minimize the horror of crucifixion:

"Crucifixion is like throwing salt nonstop to injury upon injury.  First whip the hell out of a person, tear apart his skin, then hammer him with steel chains containing balls and piercing nails, then asking the guy in that condition to carry an entire Cross structure, getting stoned by the spectators, dragging up the hill, then erecting the Cross followed by nailing his hands and feet and as if not enough, break his legs and then thrusting in a spear to make sure blood and water gushed out. This system described to show the suffering is all hoax"

Without resorting to many "cut and paste" SECULAR facts regarding Roman crucifixion of the time of Jesus, I will just say that if you do a Google, you will find them yourself.  It is not a myth that this was the preferred method of crucifixion at that time in history.  This is a HISTORICAL FACT, if you completely remove the religious aspect. 

(I will provide the documented scientific information, if you like, but as you know, I'm not a great fan of "cut and paste.  I prefer to see people answer in their own words, and use minimal copying of documents.  I detest pages of documents.  We are all quite capable of understanding important excerpts from documents.  It has also been shown that people are more inclined to actually read and pay attention more if you don't OVERLOAD them with pages of material.)

You also said:

"Crucification was much nicer in the sense that a man would be hung up and left to die, without bothering the condemned man."

All I can manage to choke out to that unfortunate comment is this:  Imagine the person you love most of all in this whole world being put to death exactly as you stated above.  Does that lessen your grief?  Does that make you feel the loved one is not suffering and in great pain?  Do you realize the medical facts at all as far as what happens to a human being's body during this tortorous act?  I am appalled at your callousness.

God Grant You Wisdom,

Patty

Patty

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BMZ
 
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bullet Posted: 16 May 2006 at 6:00am

Hi Patty,

Neither do I cut, copy and paste.

I am sorry. I did not mean that. I should have written:

"Crucification was much neater in the sense that a man would be hung up and left to die, without bothering the condemned man."

By the way, Patty, Bible does not talk of crucifixion, it mentions crucification.

Best Regards

BMZ

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Patty
 
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bullet Posted: 16 May 2006 at 6:04am

Dear BMZ:

You said:

"Crucification was much neater in the sense that a man would be hung up and left to die, without bothering the condemned man."

By the way, Patty, Bible does not talk of crucifixion, it mentions crucification."

We can call it whichever you like.  It is still a gory, tortorous means of death, no matter what the word we prefer to use.  I don't care to argue the word right now....maybe later.

God's Peace,

Patty

 

Patty

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fredifreeloader
 
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bullet Posted: 16 May 2006 at 6:08am
abrah - you have stated that the "crucifixion of Jesus is a hoax" - and have uttered dreadful blasphemy against our glorious Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ in the process (i may come back to your address your lies, time permitting) - but then you said this -

 

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-  Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise;-  And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- (Quran 4:157-158)

now if this is true, who is the big hoaxer? - clearly the answer is - your god! (not that im surprised to learn it)

 

for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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AbRah2006
 
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bullet Posted: 16 May 2006 at 6:37am
fredifreeloader :

now if this is true, who is the big hoaxer? - clearly the answer is - your god! (not that im surprised to learn it


------------------------------------------------------------ ------

Here is my response to fredifreeloader's wild allegation:

The contradictory statements of the Bible concerning the so-called 'crucifixion of Jesus' have proven that the crucifixion of Jesus is a lie.Would you attribute those errors to God and Jesus? If the Bible contained conflicting verses would you still consider it to be Holy? Will you accept its contradictory statements to prove that Jesus was crucified to death? Most likely you will say of course not.

Allah(God) is not the hoaxer for Allah(God) will not contradict His own Word and Allah is the absolute truth. It is Him who had given the Torah to the prophet Moses, Injeel to the prophet Jesus and Quran to the prophet Muhammad! God will not contradict His own Word for He is the All Wise so it is the keepers of the Torah and Bible who corrupt the Torah and Bible into a lie: 

Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death(Deuteronomy 31:25-29).The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted.  The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption.

The entire Bible is corrupted and unreliable and is mostly filled with man-made laws and corruption!  "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie(From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!

It seems to me that the hoaxers are the keepers of the Torah and Bible who corrupt them into a lie according Deuteronomy 31:25-29 and Jeremiah 8:8-9 !



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
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fredifreeloader
 
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bullet Posted: 16 May 2006 at 7:16am

no abrah, i have not made a wild allegation.  it is there for all to read in quran 4: 157-158 - "so it was made to appear to them", and it was allah who is alleged to have raised him up, and left someone looking like him on the cross! 

now you have introduced yet another lie, to add to your list.  you state that in deuteronomy 31:  35-29, moses predicted that the israelites would corrupt the book of the law, but he did no such thing.  he said they would corrupt themselves, and turn aside form the way God had commanded them

also in jeremiah, it appears that certain scribes had "handled it falsely" - how were they able to tell this was so, if they did not have the perfect book of the law with them?

this is it with you people, one lie just leads to another, and you soon become enmeshed in deceit

for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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