Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
Message Icon Topic: Islams beliefs concerning Christianity Post Reply Post New Topic
Page  of 5 Next >>
Author Message
rbaitz
 
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 25 March 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
Quote rbaitz Replybullet Topic: Islams beliefs concerning Christianity
    Posted: 08 April 2005 at 3:07am

I have several questions concerning this topic and hope someone can be helpful in answering them based on what Islam teaches and not personal belief if it differs then that of historical Islam.

1. Why do some Muslims believe the Bible is not the word of God and it has become corrupt? Does it mention this in the Quran or Hadith or elsewhere and that is how they came to that conclusion?

 

Look forward to chatting.

Robin

IP IP Logged
rbaitz
 
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 25 March 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
Quote rbaitz Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:06pm

Second question. Why does Islam reject that Jesus died on a cross then rose from the dead? What historical evidence is their to support this belief?

The brief support for the Christian in believing this is following;

1. Jesus Himself said He would be taken and put to death, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem; and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn Him to death" Matthew 20:18. He also said He would rise from the dead, John 2:19-21.

2. All the New Testament writers who proclaimed Jesus as God's only begotten Son who died and rose from the dead in victory. They believed this because they saw with their own eyes and felt Him with their own hands. Even douting Thomas believed after He saw the risen Christ, John 20:28. Most of them were killed for their faith. If this were a lie they could have simply said so to save their own lives but held to the truth they knew about Jesus.

3. Non-Christian writers from the first century, Tacitus was a Roman historian who wrote briefly of the Christian faith. Josephus was a Jewish historian who also wrote briefly concerning the Christian faith. Both support the truth Jesus died and rose from the dead.

4. There are even more historical documents from early century supporting the Christians claim. See www.carm.org

5. The Church is a living witness that Jesus rose from the dead defeating death.

This is a mere brief summary of some of the evidence why Christians believe Jesus, God's Son, died for the sins of mankind then rose from the dead.

To deny this seems to me that all the New Testament writers, early historians and the Church would all have to been lying or all these documents changed through history. As in any good court of law this must be shown to be the case by evidence. Can Islam make a case that is valid? Juriors must weight the evidence not merely say it is so just because, this goes for both sides, Christians and Muslims alike.



Edited by rbaitz
IP IP Logged
semar
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Senior Member

Joined: 11 March 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1323
Quote semar Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2005 at 11:25pm

Q= Question; A= Answer

Originally posted by rbaitz


Q: 1. Why do some Muslims believe the Bible is not the word of God and it has become corrupt?

A: http://www.islaminfo.com/new/detail.asp?ID=60

Originally posted by rbaitz


Q: Does it mention this in the Quran or Hadith or elsewhere and that is how they came to that conclusion?

A: Hadith Shahih Bukhori:

Volume 9, Book 92, Number 460:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The people of the Book used to read the Torah in Hebrew and then explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. Allah's Apostle said (to the Muslims). "Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelieve them, but say, 'We believe in Allah and whatever is revealed to us, and whatever is revealed to you.' "

Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461:

Narrated Ubaidullah:

Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"

So we asked to believe the ORIGINAL scriptures that he revealed to moses and Jesus. The above hadith said the current scripture that you have has been corrupted. So the hadith advise us not to believe all and not to deny all. We are asked to believe to them as long as it is align  with the quran. If not we have to use the quran as the latest version of God's book.

More about bible contradiction read link bellow:
http://www.islaminfo.com/new/bible.asp

Originally posted by rbaitz


Q: Second question. Why does Islam reject that Jesus died on a cross then rose from the dead?

A: There is discussion about this on this forum:
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=132& KW=jesus

However I want to add a little Read bellow your question

Originally posted by rbaitz


Q: What historical evidence is their to support this belief?

The brief support for the Christian in believing this is following;

1. Jesus Himself said He would be taken and put to death, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem; and the Son of Man will be delivered to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn Him to death" Matthew 20:18. He also said He would rise from the dead, John 2:19-21.

2. All the New Testament writers who proclaimed Jesus as God's only begotten Son who died and rose from the dead in victory. They believed this because they saw with their own eyes and felt Him with their own hands. Even douting Thomas believed after He saw the risen Christ, John 20:28. Most of them were killed for their faith. If this were a lie they could have simply said so to save their own lives but held to the truth they knew about Jesus.

3. Non-Christian writers from the first century, Tacitus was a Roman historian who wrote briefly of the Christian faith. Josephus was a Jewish historian who also wrote briefly concerning the Christian faith. Both support the truth Jesus died and rose from the dead.

4. There are even more historical documents from early century supporting the Christians claim. See www.carm.org

5. The Church is a living witness that Jesus rose from the dead defeating death.

This is a mere brief summary of some of the evidence why Christians believe Jesus, God's Son, died for the sins of mankind then rose from the dead.

To deny this seems to me that all the New Testament writers, early historians and the Church would all have to been lying or all these documents changed through history. As in any good court of law this must be shown to be the case by evidence. Can Islam make a case that is valid? Juriors must weight the evidence not merely say it is so just because, this goes for both sides, Christians and Muslims alike.

A: The Quran as the final version God's book didn't say so (Jesus was crucified).

A: The Quran tell everything about Jesus.
4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

More About Jesus:
http://www.islaminfo.com/new/jesus.asp

Jesus in the Quran:
http://www.islamicity.com/quransearch/default.asp?ref=jesus& amp; amp; amp;TB=



Edited by semar
Salam/Peace,
Semar
The Prophet said: "Do not eat before you are hungry, and stop eating before you are full"
"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"
IP IP Logged
tawhid
 
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 28 March 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 62
Quote tawhid Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2005 at 12:28am
Originally posted by rbaitz

I have several questions concerning this topic and hope someone can be helpful in answering them based on what Islam teaches and not personal belief if it differs then that of historical Islam.

1. Why do some Muslims believe the Bible is not the word of God and it has become corrupt? Does it mention this in the Quran or Hadith or elsewhere and that is how they came to that conclusion?

 

Look forward to chatting.

Robin

 

no...and that is the wierdest thing...contemporary islam theology accuse the bible...any translation...of corruption

yet their prophet claimed otherwise

however i am yet to see a muslim show me a good enjeel...good enough for them anyway...

the burden of proof then falls on islam....and has stayed there since its birth....

comments please

sukran, thomas



Edited by tawhid
IP IP Logged
rbaitz
 
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 25 March 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
Quote rbaitz Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2005 at 8:46pm

Semar,

Than you for your taking the time to look over my post and replying. I have read over the first part of your response and will post another reply later concerning the second question..

Problems with "Changes in the Bible" http://www.islaminfo.com/new/detail.asp?ID=60

First the article said, "Each time an older manuscript of the Bible is discovered, many changes are required in the Bible to bring it in line with the ancient manuscripts." This is far fetched because there has already been to date over 5,000 ancient manucripts found in Greek and other languages that confirm the validity of the New Testament. Where is the footnote on this Islamic webpage? Where is the reference, the proof, the pudding, the meat of this argument? Why isn’t it listed here? Because this is complete speculation.

Secondly, the article points out Mark 1:1 in the NIV translation of Jesus being the "Son of God" and a different translation in the New World Translation. At first glance the web site’s argument looks logical. If one translation of the Bible is completely different from the next this shows a problem. I would agree, but there is a huge problem. The article pointed to the New World Translation, which is a mistranslated Bible that came from a cult that claims to be Christian but is very far from it. They are known as Jehovah’s Witnesses and their organization is the WatchTower located in Brooklyn, NY. This organization never had a Hebrew and Greek scholar working for them to have made this translation. Call any university who has a Hebrew and Greek scholar and ask them about the Jehovah’s Witness’ Bible and they will confirm it’s a bad translation. They are deceptive and so is there so called Bible. Therefore the argument made by the writer is falsified. If we look at other Bible translations we will not find this problem. For example, the King James Bible, New King James Bible, NIV, NASB, NRS, or the ASV all are in harmony. Look for yourself. http://bible.crosswalk.com

Proof that there are changes to the Bible has not been established. But I am listening if someone can demonstrate it with evidence and not speculation.

Next http://www.islaminfo.com/new/bible.asp is mentioned. I have nothing against anyone here though we may disagree in our beliefs, however this writer as with the last writer shown to be misinformed and uneducated about the Bible, interpretation and seems to be bent toward making the Bible out to have problems. For example,

"Who incited David to count the fighting men of Israel?
(a) God did (2 Samuel 24:1)
(b) Satan did (1 Chronicles 21:1)."

Does this show a contradiction? If I was ignorant about the Bible or hermenutics (the art and science of biblical interpretation) I would say, yes. However the answer is No. Here is why,

In 2 Samuel 24:1, God incited David to number Israel because God was angry with David. Ultimately, God wanted to teach David not to trust in his number of fighting men, but to trust in Him. So, He moved to let David count the fighting men of Israel. He used Satan to do it which is why in 1 Chronicles 21:1, it says Satan moved David to count the men. Both are true. God either sent Satan or allowed Satan to incite David. But, how can God send Satan to do a job and yet God is not responsible for the sin? Simple.
God's authority extends even over Satan. God can use Satan to accomplish His ultimate will by simply giving permission to Satan to do that which Satan already desires to do. We see this in the crucifixion of Christ where evil men brought Jesus to death. Yet, at the same time, it was the predetermined plan of God that this be done.

"For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur," (Acts 4:27-28, NASB).

Furthermore, we see in Job that God allowed Satan to test Job and demonstrate Job's character (Job 1:8-13). We see in John 13:25-27 that Satan entered into Judas to betray Jesus, but it was the plan of God that Jesus be betrayed as Acts 4:27-28 above tells us.
God allows the evil one to work His evil yet that word is ultimately used for the glory of God. All this is done without God sinning and it demonstrates God's absolute sovereignty over all creation.

In conclusion 101 Bible contradictions are not contradictions but can be explained as in the above example.

Robin

IP IP Logged
rbaitz
 
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 25 March 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
Quote rbaitz Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2005 at 8:58pm

Third Question

What century was the Quran founded or made known?

 

Robin

IP IP Logged
femme
 
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 21 March 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 9
Quote femme Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2005 at 12:53am
Salam,

In this Book, the Prophet's life, the history of the Arabs and the events which occurred during the period of the revelation of the Quran have not been mingled with the Divine Verses, as is the case with the Bible. The Quran is the pure word of God. Not one word therein is not divine. Not a single word has been deleted from its text. The Book has been handed down to our age in its complete and original form since the time of Prophet Muhammad. From the time the Book began to be revealed, the Prophet had dictated its text to the scribes. Whenever some Divine Message was revealed, the Prophet would call a scribe and dictate its words to him. The written text was then read out to the Prophet, who, having satisfied himself that the scribe has committed no error of recording, would put the manuscript in safe custody. The Prophet used to instruct the scribe about the sequence in which a revealed message was to be placed in a particular Surah (chapter). In this manner, the Prophet continued to arrange the text of the Quran in systematic order till the end of the chain of revelations. Again, it was ordained from the beginning of Islam that a recitation of the Quran must be an integral part of worship. Hence the illustrious Companions would commit the Divine verses to memory as soon as they were revealed. Many of them learned the whole text and a far larger number had memorized different portions of it.

Besides, those of the Companions who were literate used to keep a written record of several portions of the Qur'an. In this manner, the text of the Qur'an had been preserved in four different ways during the lifetime of the Prophet:

  1. The Prophet had the whole text of the Divine Messages from the beginning to the end committed to writing by the scribes of revelations.
  2. Many of the Companions learned the whole text of the Qur'an, every syllable of it, by heart.
  3. All the illustrious Companions, without an exception, had memorized at least some portions of the Holy Qur'an, for the simple reason that it was obligatory for them to recite it during worship. An estimate of the number of the illustrious Companions may be obtained from the fact that one hundred and forty thousands Companions had participated in the Last Pilgrimage performed by the Prophet.
  4. A considerable number of the literate Companions kept a private record of the text of the Qur'an and satisfied themselves as to the purity of their record by reading it out to the Prophet.

It is an incontrovertible historical truth that the text of the Qur'an extant today is, syllable for syllable, exactly the same as the Prophet had offered to the world as the Word of God. After the demise of they Prophet, the first Caliph, Abu Bakr, assembled all the Huffaz and the written records of the Qur'an and with their help had the whole text written in Book form. In the time of 'Uthman copies of this original version were made and officially dispatched to the Capitals of the Islamic World. Two Of these copies exist in the world today, one in Istanbul and the other in Tashkent.

Whosoever is so inclined may compare any printed text of the Holy Qur'an with those two copies, he shall find no variation. And how can one expect any discrepancy, when there have existed several million Huffaz in every generation since the time of the Prophet and in our own time? Should anyone alter a syllable of the original text of the Qur'an, these Huffaz would at once expose the mistake.

In the last century, an Institute of Munich University in Germany collected FORTY-TWO THOUSAND copies of the Holy Qur'an including manuscripts and printed texts produced in each period in the various parts of the Islamic World. Research work was carried out on these texts for half a century, at the end of which the researchers concluded that apart from copying mistakes, there was no discrepancy in the text of these forty-two thousand copies, even though they belonged to the period between the 1st Century Hijra to 14th Century Hijra and had been procured from all parts of the world.

This Institute, alas! perished in the bombing attacks on Germany during World War II, but the findings of its research project survived. Another point that must be kept in view is that the word in which the Qur'an was revealed is a living language in our own time. It is still current as the mother tongue of about a hundred million people from Egypt to Iraq to Morocco. In the non-Arab world too, hundreds of thousands of people study and teach this language.

The grammar of the Arabic language, its lexicon, its phonetic system and its phraseology, have remained intact for fourteen hundred years.

A modern Arabic-speaking person can comprehend the Holy Qur'an with as much proficiency as did the Arabs of fourteen centuries ago. This, then, is an important attribute of Muhammad, which is shared by no other Prophet or Leader of Religion. The Book which God revealed to Him for the guidance of mankind is today's in its original language without the slightest alteration in its vocabulary.

I encourage you to look up researchers that have taken the time to compare the history and authenticity of the three scriptures, Torah, Injeel, and the Quran.

Here is a brief list of what I basically summed up here. You can also use google to look up the history of the Qur'an or it's authentication.

Salam

*Edit*
Forgot to talk about the basic timeline of when everything happened, or when it is all thought/proved to have happened, anyways.

This website has the details of the time line, dating back to around 720's A.D.

I hope this information helps you, or anyone else that is curious.

*/Edit*


Edited by femme
IP IP Logged
semar
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Senior Member

Joined: 11 March 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1323
Quote semar Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2005 at 10:40am

Salam,

Good post femme.

Salam/Peace,
Semar
The Prophet said: "Do not eat before you are hungry, and stop eating before you are full"
"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"
IP IP Logged
Page  of 5 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com