Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: no compulsion - the latest...... Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 37 Next >>
Author Message
fredifreeloader
 
Guest Group
Guest Group
Avatar

Joined: 17 February 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 456
Quote fredifreeloader Replybullet Posted: 08 May 2006 at 3:53pm
Originally posted by ummziba

Not for you, Fredi, you're hopelessly enraptured by your own (so-called) cleverness in fooling with the poor little Muslims - no offense, it's the way you come across...

But for everyone else, here's a really good article on the subject of compulsion:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/347E49BD-B8A3-47A1-AF 19-5EBC405A8B9F.htm

Peace, ummziba.,

oh please, ummziba, forget about you "poor little muslims" - they give as good as they get.  as for my supposed "cleverness", well, i dont know where it went...  im not able to convince many, if any...  in any event, the "compulsion" issue is not about peoples egos, but about peoples lives.  i have read your link, and other similar articles.  compulsion is not solely about the apostasy issue, which, even on its own, is far from resolved

for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
IP IP Logged
BMZ
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 03 April 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1852
Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 09 May 2006 at 1:15am

Clever Fredi,

Now let us take somethingelse, from your own slogan:

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."

1. Who is 'he' with a small 'h'?

2. Why did he make him a sin for us when he could have made made him into something better?

3. Did he not have any other better way to get rid of sin, which has not abated or disappeared at all from the world?

3. Read from here: "for us, who knew no sin"  Yeah, we know no sin.

4. How can we be made the righteousness of God in God and then in him?

5. Who said all that?

Thanks fredi. I am ready to receive your spirit.

 



Edited by bmzsp
IP IP Logged
fredifreeloader
 
Guest Group
Guest Group
Avatar

Joined: 17 February 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 456
Quote fredifreeloader Replybullet Posted: 09 May 2006 at 3:05am
2 corinthians 5: 21, bmz, if you want a explanation of it, why not look up a commentary? (you know what this threads about, stop trying to change it)
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
IP IP Logged
BMZ
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 03 April 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1852
Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 09 May 2006 at 6:58am

Yes, you are right. I should discuss that as a separate topic.

IP IP Logged
AbRah2006
 
Guest Group
Guest Group
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 18 May 2006 at 6:14am
Originally posted by fredifreeloader

from todays Star:

http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/4/27/nat ion/1 4074076&sec=nation

"Muslims who skip Friday prayers can be punished

KOTA BARU: Skipping Friday prayers is a major sin for Muslims and it is punishable under the state’s Syariah laws, said Kelantan Bar Committee chairman Datuk Wan Harun Shukri Noordin. 

Therefore, Muslims in the state must remember that Friday prayers are compulsory, otherwise they can be jailed or fined by the religious authorities, he said yesterday. 

He was commenting on a recent case in which a Muslim man was fined by the Syariah Court here for not attending the weekly prayers.  

Wan Harun said Syariah laws may differ slightly between the various states and their religious councils, but skipping Friday prayers was a clear offence in Kelantan and this rule applied to all Muslims working or residing in the state. 

State Local Government Committee chairman Takiyuddin Hassan said all states had similar legislation stating that it was an offence not to attend Friday prayers, but in Kelantan, the enforcement was more orderly. 

That was the reason why the man was hauled to court for not going to the mosque on a Friday, he said."  

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------

In Islam Allah is God and He is One and Only.

Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtaketh Him. Unto Him belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedeth with Him save by His leave? He knoweth that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He will. His throne includeth the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous.(Quran 2:255 )
 There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.(Quran 2:256 )

There is no compulsion in religion (Quran 2:256 )  means that Islam will neither force nor coerce non-Muslims to embrace Islam for there is no compulsion in religion. If you become a Muslim you are expected to behave as a Muslim, to follow Islamic rules and accept Islam as a way of life.

In order to be a Muslim, that is, to surrender oneself to God, it is necessary to believe in the oneness of God, in the sense of His being the only Creator, Preserver, Nourisher, etc. But this belief, later called Tawhid Ar-Rububiyyah, is not enough. Many of the idolators knew and believed that only the Supreme God could do all this. But this was not enough to make them Muslims. To tawhid ar-rububiyyah, one must add tawhid al-'uluhiyyah. That is, one acknowledges the fact that it is God alone who deserves to be worshipped, and thus abstains from worshipping any other thing or being.

             Having achieved this knowledge of the one true God, man should constantly have faith in Him, and should allow nothing to induce him to deny truth.

             When faith enters a person's heart, it causes certain mental states that result in certain actions. Taken together, these mental states and actions are the proof for the true faith. The Prophet said:“ Faith is that which resides firmly in the heart and which is proved by deeds”.

             Foremost among those mental stated is the feeling of gratitude towards God, which could be said to be the essence of ibada (worship).

             The feeling of gratitude is so important that a non-believer is called 'kafir', which means 'one who denies a truth' and also 'one who is ungrateful'.

             A believer loves, and is grateful to God for the bounties He bestowed upon him, but being aware of the fact that his good deeds, whether mental or physical, are far from being commensurate with Divine favors, he is always anxious lest God should punish him, here or in the Hereafter. He, therefore, fears Him, surrenders himself to Him and serves Him with great humility. One cannot be in such a mental state without being almost all the time mindful of God. Remembering God is thus the life force of faith, without which it fades and withers away.

             The Qur'an tries to promote this feeling of gratitude by repeating the attributes of God very frequently. We find most of these attributes mentioned together in the following verses of the Qur'an:“ He is God; there is no god but He. He is the Knower of the unseen and the visible; He is the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate. He is God; there is no god but He. He is the King, the All-Holy, the All-Peace, the Guardian of the Faith, the All-Preserver, the All-Mighty, the All-Compeller, the All-Sublime. Glory be to God, above that they associate! He is God, the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. All that is in the heavens and the earth magnifies Him; He is the Almighty, the All-Wise” (Quran 59:22-24).

             “ There is no god but He, the Living, the Everlasting. Slumber seizes Him not, nor sleep. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that shall intercede with Him save by His leave? He knows what lies before them, and what is after them, and they comprehend not anything of His knowledge save such as He wills. His throne comprises the heavens and earth. The preserving of them oppresses Him not; He is the All-High, the All-Glorious” (Quran 2:255).


God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
IP IP Logged
AbRah2006
 
Guest Group
Guest Group
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 18 May 2006 at 6:36am

Originally posted by fredifreeloader

herjihad - it is malaysia, i should have specified this.  i am actually in scotland, so it will be up to canadians and americans to decide what they want.  i would utterly oppose any hint of sharia law being implemented in any way here

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------

My answer:

Islamic laws promote social justice. Please compare Islamic laws with your western secular laws regarding business :

Islamic Laws Regarding Business

Islam has permitted and in fact encouraged business. The Quran states:

"Allah has made business lawful for you" (2 : 275).

The early Muslims were not only engaged in trade but they went to distant lands in connection with business. Islam in fact reached East and West Africa, East Asia through the business people.

Islam has given detail laws of business. Islam has not permitted selling and purchasing of goods which are prohibited in Islamic law. The Prophet of Islam has said:

"When Allah prohibits a thing He prohibits (giving and receiving) the price of it as well." (reported in the books of tradition of Ahmad and Abu Daud)

Islam has also prohibited any kind of transaction involving uncertainty (Garar) as this could lead to quarrel or litigation. The Prophet of Islam has forbidden transaction involving unspecified quantity, acceptance of money for fish in the river or bird in the air as there is element of uncertainty. Similarly the Prophet of Islam has prohibited sale of fruit till they are ripened. (Chapter on Transactions involving uncertainty Garar in the book of tradition of Muslim).

However; if the element of uncertainty is very small, the transactions are permissible. For example, it is permissible to sell root vegetables while they are still on the ground. It is primarily because of the element of perishability of the harvested commodity that will result in loss to the former.

Freedom of trade and operation of market forces are allowed in Islam subject to the limits set by Shari'ah. Islam, however, condemns hoarding to make high profit at the cost of public interest. Islam does not allow making profit by withholding the commodity from the market so that it becomes scarce. The Prophet of Islam has said,

"If any one withholds goods until the price rises he is a sinner" (Tradition of Muslim).

"The withholding of grain for 40 days out of a desire of high price is prohibited in Islam" (Tradition of Ahmad, Hakim etc).

Islam, however; allows normal trade - buying and selling of goods again and again at a reasonable profit.

Islamic law has prescribed measures to prevent manipulation of market, exploitation of seller or buyer and fraud. The prophet of Islam prohibited people from going out of town to buy -merchandise which was on its way to city market. The reason for this prohibition is that the market place, where the forces of demand and supply determine prices, is the best place for trading transactions. In the situation of buying on way to market, the seller may not know the real market price and he may be deprived of legitimate price.

Islam prohibits fraud in business dealings. The Prophet (Sm) has said:

"It is not permissible to sell an article without making everything clear nor is it permissible for anyone who knows (about its defects) to refrain from mentioning them" (Baihaqi).

The Prophet of Islam has also said:

"Sell the good and bad separately. He who deceives is not of us" (Muslim, Ahmad).

The sin of fraud is greater if the seller supports it by swearing falsely. The Prophet has said,

"Swearing produces ready sale but blots out blessing" (Bukhari).

In the same manner deceiving others by withholding full measure is also prohibited. The Qur’an has emphasized the giving of full measure. It says,

"And give full measure and (full) weight in justice" (6:1 52).

Islam has prohibited business transactions on interest. The Quran is explicit about it and says,

"Allah- has permitted for you trade and prohibited interest"
(2 : 275).

In the Muslim world, in the last decade a chain of Islamic Banks has come up to avoid interest in trade.

Islam has permitted and encouraged business subject to aforesaid principles and restrictions. If these principles are followed, the economy will be greatly purified from injurious practices.

Please visit http://www.jamaat.org/islam/sources.html to know more about Islamic social laws



Edited by AbRah2006
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
IP IP Logged
AbRah2006
 
Guest Group
Guest Group
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 18 May 2006 at 6:53am

If you think that the secular laws give you freedom then you are wrong for there is no absolute freedom in the West. You have to obey the laws of your country in the West. If you break the laws you will be punished by the court so please don't slander Islamic laws for Islamic laws promote social justice!

The Islamic judges are instructed to be fair to both sides (the accuser and the accused).

In the west, the outcome of a trial depend on the lawyers...Successful, experienced and expensive lawyers ensure good outcome of a trial if you have so much money to hire them...Question: What will happen to poor people who have little money to spend on the trial in the West?

God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
IP IP Logged
AbRah2006
 
Guest Group
Guest Group
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 354
Quote AbRah2006 Replybullet Posted: 18 May 2006 at 8:59am
Originally posted by Alibaba

I see Abrah2006 lives in the United States, and interestingly condemns western judicial systems in favor of the Islamic law courts.  Well, Arbrah, I suppose you noted that the Muslim terrorist, Moussaoui (or however his name is spelled) was not given the axe by an American jury of westerners - which seems to be a pretty big break for somebody who has said that his greatest wish is to kill Americans.

Perhaps  you'd do better in Iran, where the judicial system is based on Muslim laws.  You seem to hate everything western - my goodness, why are you  living there?

Some thoughts on Moussaoui:

http://blog.oneamericacommittee.com/tag/Moussaui

------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------ ------------

Was it wrong for the Vietnamese people to kill Americans who invaded Vietnam and massacred millions of innocent Vietnamese people during the Vietnamese War? Have you forgotten how the American troops raped and massacred innocent Vietnamese babies, children,women, elderly people etc during the My Lai Massacre?

Was it wrong for the Korean people to kill Americans who invaded Korea and massacred millions of innocent Korean babies, children, women, elderly people etc during the Korean War?

Is it wrong for the Iraqi people to kill Americans who are invading and plundering Iraq? Is it right for those American troops to torture, rape and murder innocent Iraqi babies, children, women, elderly people etc in Iraq....Don't try to fool me by saying that Bush is liberating Iraq...Bush lie so much so that he and his cronies may invade Iraq...Where are the non-existent WMDs? Nowhere! Hitler used to say that he invaded Europe to liberate Europe! Bush and his allies even imposed economy sanctions onto Iraq that starved millions of Iraqi babies to death!

Is it wrong for the Afghan people to kill Americans who are invading and plundering Afghanistan? Is it right for those American troops to torture, rape and murder innocent Afghan babies, children, women, elderly people etc in Afghanistan?....Don't try to fool me by saying that Bush is liberating Afghanistan...The US forces bomb and bombarded civilian targets killing innocent civilians who don't even know where New York is. Hitler used to say that he invaded Europe to liberate Europe and so does Bush!

I quote your words ' his greatest wish is to kill Americans.'  His wish does not reflect the teachings of Islam for Islam forbids terrorism!

With regard to the Dhimmis (Non-Muslims living under Muslim protection), Islam ordered that they must be treated justly. It gave them rights and imposed duties on them. It gave them security in the Muslim world, and imposed blood-money and expiation for an act of killing committed against anyone among them. Allah says:

"If he belonged to a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance, blood-money shall be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed" (4:92)

Furthermore, in conformity with the saying of the Prophet (peace be on him), Islam prohibits the slaying of a Dhimmi living in the Muslim world.

"Whoever kills a person under the contract of protection shall never smell the scent of Paradise" (Ibn Majah)

Moreover, Islam does not forbid its followers from being charitable towards those who do not fight them or expel them from their homes. Allah says in the Qur'an:

"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: For Allah loves those who are just" (60:8)

And:

"And let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do" (5:8)

Islam, a religion of mercy, does not permit terrorism. In the Quran, God has said:
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)

The Prophet Muhammad used to prohibit soldiers from killing women and children, and he would advise them: {...Do not betray, do not be excessive, do not kill a newborn child.} And he also said: {Whoever has killed a person having a treaty with the Muslims shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise, though its fragrance is found for a span of forty years.} 

The Prophet Muhammad  once listed murder as the second of the major sins, and he even warned that on the Day of Judgment, {The first cases to be adjudicated between people on the Day of Judgment will be those of bloodshed.}

Allah has prohibited Muslims from committing mischief. Allah says in the Qur'an:"And seek not occasions for mischief in the land: for Allah loves not those who do mischief" (Quran 28:77)

In combating terrorism and protecting society against its evil consequences, Islam is a trail-blazer. Through clear-cut limitations that must not be trespassed, Islam urges the protection of human life, honour, property, religion and intellect. Allah says in the Qur'an:

"If any do transgress the limits ordained by Allah, such persons wrong themselves as well as others" (Quran 2:229)

Accordingly, in furtherance of this honour bestowed upon mankind, Islam prohibit[s] man's injustice to his fellow man, and condemn[s] those who cause harm to people, not only in the Muslim world, but anywhere in the world.

Allah says in the Qur'an: "Say: The things that my Lord has indeed forbidden are; shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason." And: "When he turns his back, his aim everywhere is to spread mischief through the earth and destroy crops and progeny. But Allah loves not mischief. When it is said to him 'Fear Allah,' he is led by arrogance to (more) crime. Enough for him is Hell - an evil bed indeed to lie on" (Quran 7:33 & 2:205-206)

Allah said:

"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: For Allah loveth those who are just"

And:

"Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for your faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support others in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them in these circumstances that do wrong." (Quran 60:8-9)

Islam has crystal clear rules and provisions that forbid the killing of non-combatants, innocent persons, such as the elderly, women and children; pursuit of fleeing persons, slaying persons who have surrendered, injuring prisoners, or mutilating the bodies of the dead, or destroying structures and buildings that have no connection with combat.

However Islam allows Muslims to defend their countries if they are attacked by the enemies of Islam!

Edit: Please discuss the topic in the context of interfaith dialogue, quote Islamic sources from Qur'an and ahadith without bringing political turmoil of past and present to make your case. Politics can be discussed in Politics section --Peacemaker



Edited by peacemaker
God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (Quran, 60:8)
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 37 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com