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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: How is Jesus Both God and Human? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2005 at 7:07pm

looks like my question isn't going to be answered here. Tawhid you obviously do not understand the nature of my question sad to say. We talk of God's humility yet the question remains how is Jesus both human and God?

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tawhid
 
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Quote tawhid Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2005 at 7:44pm
Originally posted by Israfil

looks like my question isn't going to be answered here. Tawhid you obviously do not understand the nature of my question sad to say. We talk of God's humility yet the question remains how is Jesus both human and God?

 

israfil...thank you for bringing this to my attention...

i do not have all the answers to this question...however...i will put my two cents into as well provide you with other sources on this matter...

but as of now - i am in class studying real estate...so now is not a good time....seeing as how it will take more of a theological approach at this question and requires a longer time to both give to you as well as having that givin info cogent - hehe in other words...i will answer...but it will take me longer than how long i am usually on the computer at a given time...

this is a challenging question...however...easily answerable to one who is open to that answer...

a similar question that is equally hard for a muslim theologan to answer for the christian is...

 Say: "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord" (5:71 AYA/68 MP). How can the Jew or Christian, stand fast by the Law and the Gospel, if the Law and the Gospel have been corrupted or abrogated? Again, the assumption of the Qur'an is that the scriptures that the Christians and Jews have is the reliable word of God.

and with this my dear friend israfil,,,will lead you into my comments of how God, the great "i am" of both the old testiment (exodus 3:13) and also the new testiment (john 8:58) was both human (a sinless- THE only sinless human) and god at the same time...

ponder on your quranic verse...and the question the the christian poses for it....then with that question...will come both (inchallah) an openness to God's holy scriptures of the NT and will reveal...(to those truly seeking it and to those guided by God's spirit) will truly and genuinely be given wisdom...

however if the question is posed as a challenge without a true objectivity - then a spiritual guard is already up due to the lack of given- objective - {possible] validity of the NT

shees i wrote alot...but i NEED to go now...

blessings to you israfil...and ponder on that in red as i will try to answer "how god can be both human and god at the same time" very soon...actually that will be my next project when i come here

tawhid



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DavidC
 
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 11 April 2005 at 6:09am
Originally posted by Israfil

looks like my question isn't going to be answered
here. Tawhid you obviously do not understand the nature of my question
sad to say. We talk of God's humility yet the question remains how is
Jesus both human and God?



How can the Qu'ran be both divine and be a book? Because it exists
precisely at a point where man and God intersect. Try conceptualizing
using set theory instead of arithmatic.

DavidC
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 11 April 2005 at 4:31pm
The nature of my question implies that I'm ready for an answer, and I'm merely asking for the opinion of Christians. No statements, no assumptions this is purely dialouge is that so hard? all I ask is a question to be answered.
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Shams Zaman
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Quote Shams Zaman Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2005 at 11:53am

Was Jesus god?

Well let me remove some of the misconceptions amongst my Christian and Muslim brothers. The most common phrases we hear are : 

Can God do everything?  Answer is Yes.

Can God create anything? Answer is Yes.  

Can God destroy everything?  Answer is Yes.

Can God create a thing which he can’t destroy??? And we are trapped.

A very simple answer I will give to all these phrases is that refer to Quran. And I found that nowhere it is written that God can do everything. Its written that God do what all he intends to do. So:

God can’t do everything. He does not do un-Godly acts. Like God can’t tell lie. God can’t throw me out of His domain (every place is His domain). He can’t do injustice and he can’t take human form.

Well certainly if He intends He can create the heaviest stone and when He intends He can destroy it. But performing any un-Godly act will not qualify for Him as God. Like if He takes Human form He ceases to be a God, he is a human then because it is not an attribute of God. If He lies, He is not a God then because its none of the attributes of God. If he do injustice He ceases to be a God because God’s attribute is Just.

Therefore God do not and can not and do not perform un-Godly acts. These are against His dignity and greatness and we have to be very careful attributing certain actions towards Him.

No where in Bible it is written that Jesus was God and those who have translated him as son, they have done a great error and blunder. See for yourself what Bible says in :

Isaiah Ch-45, verses 21-23, “Tell ye, and bring them near, yea, let them take counsel together, who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told this from that time? Have not I the Lord? And there is no God else beside Me O Look unto me and be ye saved all the ends of the earth, and there is none else O I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness and shall not return That unto me every knee shall bow and every tongue shall swear O”. 

Also see Isaiah Ch-45, verse 5, 6, 14 and 18. Timothy 1 Ch-1 verse 17, Exodus Ch 20 verse 3, “Thou shalt have no other gods beside me” and Exodus Ch 23, verse 24-25.

 Moreover, what John Ch 3, verse 16 and 17 say is completely blasphemous. What is the meaning of word begotten? And we all know in which meaning it is used.

While the verse 30 in John Ch 10 is read out of context. Please read verses 24 - 29 where it becomes clear that Jesus said to Jews that as they do not follow his instructions therefore they are not amongst his sheep (followers) and his sheep follow him and listen to him. And God gave him these instructions and whatever he tells to people are in fact instructions of God. To follow Jesus means to follow God and there he uses this verse that “I and my father are one” verse 30.

Well if it has to be taken in literal meaning that he actually meant that he and his father are actually one in physical terms then it should be taken in literal terms that he was not speaking to Jews but to batch of sheep.

Quran define attributes of God in shortest possible and absolute clear terms in Sura Ikhlas 112, “Say: He, Allah, is One (and alone) o Allah is (eternal) on Whom all are dependant o He begets not, nor is He begotten o And there is nothing like Himo

The word used for Allah (God) in Arabic is ‘Aahad’ which means alone and one. Like I as a personality am one, but for me in Arabic ‘Wahid’ will be used, this means one but still in composite numbers (other humans). But ‘Aahad’ means one and alone who has nothing and no one alike. So this solves the problem. Therefore Jesus was a great Messenger of Allah like other prophets and neither was he son or god himself.             

Regarding Quran was compiled 20 years after Muhammad’s (MPBUH) death, who told you that? Indeed it is news for all those Muslims who have read Islamic History. Well sir Quran was compiled almost two years before the death of Prophet Muhammad. The sequence of Surahs or chapters was told by the Prophet and it was placed in the room of Lady Aysha (wife of Holy Prophet and daughter of first caliph Abu-Bakar). This happened in 9th year after Hijrat or Exodus from Makkah. The Quran was in proper written form but on palm leaves, piece of cloths etc in a bag. Prophet died in 11th year after exodus and there were some problems in the Islamic state outskirts. In one battle War of Yamama some 70 hufaz (who had memorized Quran by heart) died in one day so there was a need to re-write Quran on one medium in one binding.

During the first few years of the first Caliph Quran was written on one medium, binded and placed with Lady Aysha. Later once Islam was spreading in the times of Caliph Usman (the 3rd Caliph) it was felt to fix the writing font of Quran as there were reports that at some places people are reciting Quran with changed spellings. Like if you are in United States, you may find wrong spellings in British English so you will correct them. But once French would pronounce it he will change the pronunciation as well. In Arabic this would amount to changing the meaning altogether. So to avoid the pronunciation error by non-Arabs its Arabic text was re-fixed and all other copies with other fonts/text were destroyed. So the Quran of to days is the ditto copy of the Quran revealed on Muhammad 1400 years ago.       

Shams Zaman Pakistan smszmn72@yahoo.com

smszmn72@yahoo.cm
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zulkharnain
 
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Quote zulkharnain Replybullet Posted: 13 April 2005 at 12:15am
May Allah bless us with better knowledge Please do not
elaborate what we are not taught to doin Islam.
I invite Daniel to Islam.
God is supernatural being he is not one among the
trinity. "Jesus ate food" was described in Quran is
sufficient to say that he was not God, as God don't eat
like we do.
Jesus shall come to earth and end the christianity and
break the cross. This is what Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)
has prophessed. This is a challenge from Islam. If u
dont believe Dear D.. U will be at Loss. Mind it.
May Allah bless u
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 13 April 2005 at 5:03pm

As'Salaamu Alaikum

In no way I'm defending Christian theology when it comes to the divinity of Christ, but Shams certain things you have mentioned can be refuted and even be contradictory see the following:

Can God do everything?  Answer is Yes.

Can God create anything? Answer is Yes.  

Can God destroy everything?  Answer is Yes.

Can God create a thing which he can’t destroy??? And we are trapped.

 

Let us take the first three examples:

 

Can God do anything? Yes

Can God create anything? Yes

Can God destroy everything? Yes

 

Since using this for the sake of God's attributes I will comment on this. In the first example since God can do everything (or anything) then its quite possible for God create a rock that he cannot lift, no? The argument however is illogical since we have no true concept of God's power except through doctrinal understanding and through the sciences of nature. With these limitations we can only infur what God can do. Since God is God believers will not use "can't" in respect with God's attributes since we believe God can do anything, fallibility in this would result in God being fallible.

 

Since its possible for God to create anything then its quite possible for God to create a human form for himself and to ascend from a higher state into a lower state as Christian theology implies. It's also possible for God to become limited in time (since we believe he can do anything, and since anything implies no limit we can also see the paradox in God being able to limit his limitedless being in time).

Its very possible for God to destroy everything since the first example implying God's limitless ability to do anything thus encompassing the ability to annihilate everything. But in conclusion arguing the subject of how Jesus is God and using this example does not do the Islamic understanding of God any justice. This only leaves what you said open for those who are opposite of Islamic belief to criticize what you said. In this the Christian theologian has won....

 

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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 13 April 2005 at 8:30pm
Israfil, I think I don't buy your solution to a circular argument. There is no way that without contradicting the assumption in the first part of the argument (can god make a such a heavy load) that you conclude to say "yes he can" to the last part of the argument (that he can't lift it himself). As I said these type of questions are illogical in their very essence. Those who usually used them only because they don't have any other way to satisfy their people. They merely appeal to the blind faith to their advantage; however by doing so they forget to take care of the first part of the argument, hence contradicting themselves. But who cares to use their mind to recognise and filter the absured false from the truth?
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