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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: How is Jesus Both God and Human? Post Reply Post New Topic
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tawhid
 
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Quote tawhid Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2005 at 3:44pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Originally posted by DavidC

.....
Christians believe Jesus was 100% man and 100% God =(200%).

We are not denying the 100% that is reality, but there is also knowledge
that can only be passed along through paradox, parable and symbolism.

DavidC

This christian belief is based on conjecture only and that too, derived through the books of unknown authors which were selectively chosen based upon the recommendations of concil of humans gathered almost 5 centuries after Jesus; merely a guess work. The total argument usually given in support of this kind of belief is by asking the question that; is it not possible that since God is all powerfull, in his infinite capacity, he can come to earth in a human form? This is inherrantly a flawed reasoning as one can ask a question on similar basis that can God make such a load heavy that he himself can't lift it? Any answer to this question would be selfcontradicting. This type of reasoning works only for the ignorant people who would put their beliefs on conjectural mysteries. It is for this very reason that quran ask them to leave the conjecture and follow the true path based on facts. However, since the time of Prophet Jesus, extremely little probability exists that anyone can figure out facts from their available resources. Hence, there is all the more logical reasons for them to study Islam and recognise God through it without any conjectures, paradoxes, parables and symbolism. 

i completely disagree....

conjecture? you mean...as in "guesswork" [webster's dictionary]

if so...than i ask you...is the enjeels also guess work?

the same enjeels that muhammed spoke of in sura 48:29? and numerous other sura chapters that proclaim the authenticity of gospels - as well as seeking the counsel of the gospels?

i ask then...where are these gospels that christians have somehow...someway...intentionally or ignorantly misplaced or lost or mishandled?  where?

and based on 'recomendations from councils 5 centuries after christ' - i may also ad that the holy spirit...the same one that happend on pentacost was also in the presence of the formulation of GOd's word (the NT) during the formation of the current gospels...whether it be the nkjv or niv or what have you...

it is just funny...here is a muslim...that - while her prophet TELLS her to rely on the enjeels....ALSO with the same breath....proclaims the the very same gospels are not to be trusted...when her prophet nowhere claims that the enjeels are to be discredited...so what is it? can the gospels be trusted? or not? yes ? or no? if yes...why isnt there a muslim enjeel accepted all throughout the ummah as truly inspired word of god...

and if no...you are simply arguing against your own religious tenets

so that very same question must be answered to the muslim who believes muhammed was a prophet of god...

he was told to recite....not write down....but recite what god had spoken to him....

but....

the quran ITSELF was not formulated until over 20 years AFTER muhammed died!!!

and beforehand.....the koran was based on pure, unadulterated....audio/verbal recitation!!!! not pen/ink/and paper medium ....which one is more reliable...imperfect human thought process of recitation...which is open to error...or written document?

so you answer me? is conjecture a very high possibility in the kuran as well...seeing as how their scriptures were not written in the form it is now right away - but 20+ years later...and not even by muhammed?  YES

tawhid

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DavidC
 
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2005 at 5:53pm
AhmadJoyia, in the same paragraph you mention "follow the one true
path" and then recommend "do not study based on symbolism".

Certainly "path" is a symbol for life, but isn't the correct quote "straight
path" not "correct path"? Straight path would imply that there may be
other less efficient (but perhaps more scenic) paths available.

I think Muslims and Christians are both stuck with some reliance on
symbolism, but I can agree with you in a general sense that Christians
have confused the symbolic meanings of our scripture more than
Muslims.

DavidC
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2005 at 12:03pm

There is still no response to my question. Brother David you brought up two points: In one, you mentioned that Jesus is both 100% God and 100% human. In such a statement its quite hard to see that as not literal. If what it is to be human is made up of physical compositions and to be limited in time then perhaps the nature of God in Christianity is dualistic. I understand the great importance of Jesus' nature as he is important in both Christianity and in Islam but my point is if in fact mainstream Christianity holds Jesus as both God and man then this quite frankly changes the nature of God. If in fact we say (as Angel mentions) God can do anything then yes we are consequently left with the belief that God can change in nature.

But this philosophy itself would contradict Christian and Islamic theology. The nature of God by this concept is a changeable character and if so God is subject to time and space and is temporal in nature as well. So are we changing places here or what I still need to know in your words Christian brothers how can Jesus be both God and human with the given understanding in doctrinal text that God is changeless and immortal in nature?

 

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DavidC
 
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2005 at 2:38pm
I don't think God is changeless. Didn't God change his mind several times
as Muhummad went back and forth per Moses entreaty to reduce the
number of daily prayer?

I can't defend the Trinity too much, because it is not a concept I find
particularly helpful. I do hate to see it used to dismiss Christianity as a
pagan religion, which some Muslims do.

DavidC
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tawhid
 
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Quote tawhid Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2005 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by Israfil

There is still no response to my question. Brother David you brought up two points: In one, you mentioned that Jesus is both 100% God and 100% human. In such a statement its quite hard to see that as not literal. If what it is to be human is made up of physical compositions and to be limited in time then perhaps the nature of God in Christianity is dualistic. I understand the great importance of Jesus' nature as he is important in both Christianity and in Islam but my point is if in fact mainstream Christianity holds Jesus as both God and man then this quite frankly changes the nature of God. If in fact we say (as Angel mentions) God can do anything then yes we are consequently left with the belief that God can change in nature.

But this philosophy itself would contradict Christian and Islamic theology. The nature of God by this concept is a changeable character and if so God is subject to time and space and is temporal in nature as well. So are we changing places here or what I still need to know in your words Christian brothers how can Jesus be both God and human with the given understanding in doctrinal text that God is changeless and immortal in nature?

 

 

a simple post...put seemingly ignorantly looked over by muslims (i am not calling a muslim ignorant)

god is great...right...."allahu akbar"

god can do anything he wants .... right?

god will do anyting he wants...right?

------------------

simply put...in the most simplest of terms...

the muslim denies...the greatness of god by discrediting that god became human....

but he muslim may say..."becomming a human is a step DOWN from being God"....

true....

but i must also point out my brothers ....

allahu akbar....

god is great...

simply put...he can do whatever he wants to do...especially to provide salvation for sinners...you, me,,,your mom, my mom...and so forth...

because one may think that it is a 'step down' by god manifesting into human form...does in NO WAy MEAN that god did not infact do it

christ even claimed it for himself...

john 8:58 as well as revelation 22:13....

that is why it is so very puzzling to me that the muslim...(whom i greatly respect for their submission) completely disregards these words that their prophet...(and my GOd) the christ said...

still...since the birth if islam....is unanswered

sukran and blessings to you all in the name of GOd

tawhid

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DavidC
 
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2005 at 4:14am
Tawhid makes a good point about God demonstrating humility. In spite
of infinite power, he assists and forgives in Christianity.

I also see this quality in Muhummad's forgiveness of the enemies of
Islam. It must have been quite unique for a general to let conquered
peoples keep their land and posession in exchange for a religious oath.

DavidC
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2005 at 4:23am
Side note: the trinity exists within jummah

God the Father : Prayers (Worship using mind)
God the Son : Physical acts, including just being there (Worship using
body)
Holy Spirit : Soulfull connectedness between worshippers.

DavidC
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2005 at 3:24pm
Originally posted by tawhid

i completely disagree....

conjecture? you mean...as in "guesswork" [webster's dictionary]

if so...than i ask you...is the enjeels also guess work?

the same enjeels that muhammed spoke of in sura 48:29? and numerous other sura chapters that proclaim the authenticity of gospels - as well as seeking the counsel of the gospels?

i ask then...where are these gospels that christians have somehow...someway...intentionally or ignorantly misplaced or lost or mishandled?  where?

and based on 'recomendations from councils 5 centuries after christ' - i may also ad that the holy spirit...the same one that happend on pentacost was also in the presence of the formulation of GOd's word (the NT) during the formation of the current gospels...whether it be the nkjv or niv or what have you...

it is just funny...here is a muslim...that - while her prophet TELLS her to rely on the enjeels....ALSO with the same breath....proclaims the the very same gospels are not to be trusted...when her prophet nowhere claims that the enjeels are to be discredited...so what is it? can the gospels be trusted? or not? yes ? or no? if yes...why isnt there a muslim enjeel accepted all throughout the ummah as truly inspired word of god...

and if no...you are simply arguing against your own religious tenets

so that very same question must be answered to the muslim who believes muhammed was a prophet of god...

he was told to recite....not write down....but recite what god had spoken to him....

but....

the quran ITSELF was not formulated until over 20 years AFTER muhammed died!!!

and beforehand.....the koran was based on pure, unadulterated....audio/verbal recitation!!!! not pen/ink/and paper medium ....which one is more reliable...imperfect human thought process of recitation...which is open to error...or written document?

so you answer me? is conjecture a very high possibility in the kuran as well...seeing as how their scriptures were not written in the form it is now right away - but 20+ years later...and not even by muhammed?  YES

tawhid

Yes, Quran do inform us about the book given to Prophet Isaa (Jesus) and is known as Injeel. That is the reason Christians are known part of "Ahl-i-Kitab". However, weather the book remain preserved or lost is the responsiblity of the followers of Jesus. But we do know that certianly its would not be the gospel according to Luke, Mark, John or Matthew, niether it would be in the form of epistles from Paul to some nation and niether it would be the so called 'work of holy spirit' on the members of council 5 centuries after Jesus. If you ask me where could this Injeel might have gone, then my response would be to speculate (conjecture) that it might be close to what is now known to the Christian scholars as the "Q" gospel, but ofcourse it is merely my own conjecture. To read more about this "Q" gospel, kindly refer to

  • Burton L. Mack, The Lost Gospel: The Book of Q & Christian Origins (San Francisco, CA: HarperCollins 1993).
  • Also interesting to note is that despite the ubiquity of present day gospels in christian world, there are certain christian communities still existing in the todays era that don't believe in the divinship of Jesus. They don't believe him to be any part of God niether son nor part of father etc. I don't know how are they still maintaining their beliefs but they do exist. Probably, it is for them or the people like them that don't associate partners with God that Quran [5:69] refers  

    Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and Christians - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

    In the end, and agreeing to DavidC's comments also, I would say that Quran doesn't compel (different path) but recommends (true path) to Ahl-i-Kitab to accept Islam. Given the fact in the state of gospel that now exists, the original message has been obliterated in them, there is all the more reason for them to join Islam. May God of Isaa bless us all. Cheers!

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