Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: How is Jesus Both God and Human? Post Reply Post New Topic
Page  of 4 Next >>
Author Message
Israfil
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 September 2003
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3984
Quote Israfil Replybullet Topic: How is Jesus Both God and Human?
    Posted: 07 April 2005 at 7:15pm
As'Salaamu Alaikum,

I myself do not like to talk about subjects concerning just one
prophet since glory is due solely to God. But by this being an
interfaith dialouge which is meant for the Abrahamic faiths,
this subject I believe is quite appropriate. Many Christians
whom I have discussed many times with always used the
Christian explanation when question about the nature of Christ,
how he was both God and both human. Over the course of my
dialouge many have given good explanations and some
outrageous ones as well.

The concept of Jesus like all other prophets in Islam are
obviously explained, if one is equipped with the basic
understanding of Islam. My primary concern is the spiritual
nature of Jesus. A man who lived in a chaotic time. A man who
lived in a chaotic time, whose surroundings consisted of a
paganistic society and whose people were in turmoil due to
greed, power, and other vices which can corrupt civilizations.

My question to my Christian brothers in faith is, how can such a
man be both God (Creator) and man?

On this website we have discussed this question in countless
arguments and countless debates and we still are at ground
zero without even coming to answer such a question. On a
more complex scale it would seem logically impossible and
quite contradictory in the Metaphysical sense (yes I have to go
back to the science and Philosophy of things because this is
how God created everything). How does such a being who is
not limited in time is limited in time?

For the Christian how does paradox seem logical for belief? Is
it something like faith regardless of its paradox one believes in
the God whom is called Jesus? Even as a former Christian I
have struggled with many things under this question. Priest,
Catholics, Evangelist have not clearly explained this
phenomena. To better understand this question clearly I even
dabbled with the question that maybe God can morph (as in the
physical sense) from n incorporeal being to a temporal being.
If this was the case then the nature of God is not infinite but is
dual. Perhaps God is both infinite and temporal in nature as if
representing some eternal balance within himself such as Yin
and Yang for a more extreme view.

I also went further in saying that if the nature of God is dual then
perhaps if the nature of God is negative and positive then is it
possible that the famous parable is right, that God can create a
rock so heavy he cannot lift. With all these questions I could
never find answers from my Christian friends so I implore my
Christian brothers and sisters in faith to help me understand the
nature of Jesus in respect to his divinity I could have a clear
answer. The only catch is your post cannot be just Bible verses
as verses are subject to interpretation so it wouldn't be really
clear if you just posted just verses without your own
explanation.

Edited by Israfil
IP IP Logged
Angel
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2001
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6642
Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 07 April 2005 at 8:24pm

Have you actually gone to the Triniterians? who actually do believe Jesus is God.

What I think the problem is that some people have gotten it wrong about the word becoming flesh, which some must have interpreted as God becoming flesh/human.

I've been doing some reading on the trinity which this issue of yours is connected with. And found some interesting stuff.

that maybe God can morph (as in the
physical sense) from n incorporeal being to a temporal being.
If this was the case then the nature of God is not infinite but is
dual.

This is what don't understand, and I know we (the board) have gone down this road before, Why would it be that the nature of God is not infinite ? If you say that God in the human physical body is limited in what he can do, then I would might agree with you..sort of. If God can do all things, create everything then don't you think it might just be possible that God has a way to and can morph into a temporal being and back to incorporeal being, and perhaps back to temporal being. If God is limitless in what He can do then he obviously can do this.

And If Angel Gabriel showed himself to Muhammmed dressed as a man sometimes in public, then why not God Himself do the same ? Both God and Angel Gabriel are incorporeal beings, are they not ? while God is the greater. Wouldn't the concept be the same as that of Gabriel ?

Perhaps God is both infinite and temporal in nature as if
representing some eternal balance within himself such as Yin
and Yang for a more extreme view.

Masculine and femimine .

I don't know about balancing Himself since as the story goes, it was only one time. If He was balancing Himself out then it would be back and forth but it was/is not.

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
IP IP Logged
Angel
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2001
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6642
Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 07 April 2005 at 9:05pm

Have you actually gone to the Triniterians? who actually do believe Jesus is God.

What I think the problem is that some people have gotten it wrong about the word becoming flesh, which some must have interpreted as God becoming flesh/human.

I've been doing some reading on the trinity which this issue of yours is connected with. And found some interesting stuff.

that maybe God can morph (as in the
physical sense) from n incorporeal being to a temporal being.
If this was the case then the nature of God is not infinite but is
dual.

This is what don't understand, and I know we (the board) have gone down this road before, Why would it be that the nature of God is not infinite ? If you say that God in the human physical body is limited in what he can do, then I would might agree with you..sort of. If God can do all things, create everything then don't you think it might just be possible that God has a way to and can morph into a temporal being and back to incorporeal being, and perhaps back to temporal being. If God is limitless in what He can do then he obviously can do this.

And If Angel Gabriel showed himself to Muhammmed dressed as a man sometimes in public, then why not God Himself do the same ? Both God and Angel Gabriel are incorporeal beings, are they not ? while God is the greater. Wouldn't the concept be the same as that of Gabriel ?

Perhaps God is both infinite and temporal in nature as if
representing some eternal balance within himself such as Yin
and Yang for a more extreme view.

Masculine and femimine .

I don't know about balancing Himself since as the story goes, it was only one time. If He was balancing Himself out then it would be back and forth but it was/is not.

 

I have come to understand and this is somewhat inline with my own thoughts, that reading some verses Jesus was godlike and this is taken as Jesus being God, for some, but being godlike is not actually being God.

In the bible Jesus does say "godlike and ye are gods" but is it in capital letter ? If Jesus actually meant he is God don't you think he would've have used "G" instead ?

It's all in the way its written. The Bible or Jesus doesn't actually say he is God, when I have said that Jesus said he was God, I was taking in the sense of others not my own actual beliefs, that being said I also somewhat understood the the term differently "Jesus is God" as not being God despite the capital "G" in the phrase. I thought people knew that Jesus wasn't God so I was trying to explain how they might see how Jesus is God, but I was wrong and people (some) actually do see Jesus is God.  So that bit has been rendered fruitless but as I said above that things have come into line with my thoughts about the issue not all is fruitless . I think

But since some others, namely the triniterians actually do believe that Jesus is God, not sure at this stage how they got to understand or why they believe that. But it seems also they are wrong.

must go, got to do the other post on the trinity



Edited by Angel
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
IP IP Logged
blond
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 30 March 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 218
Quote blond Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2005 at 4:52am

There is nothing "spooky" about all of this.

I will list an Ayat from the Quran concerning this topic, that is in plain language, easy to understand. But watch how allegory will creep into the responses of those who respond to the Ayat I list. You will see clearly how we can be easily lead astray.

Allah is plain in His language when He says;

19:17. So she screened herself from them. Then We sent to her Our spirit and it appeared to her as a well-made man.

No morphing, no magic.



Edited by blond
IP IP Logged
DavidC
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 September 2001
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2211
Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:32am
Catholic thought refers to the unexplainable parts of Christianity as the
Mysteries http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/mystery.php.

Christians in general run the gamut between thinking of Jesus as a
prophet in the Muslim sense to literal trinitarianistic concepts.

Since God is beyond human understanding, it seems logical Jesus divinity
is beyond our understanding too.

DavidC
IP IP Logged
blond
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 30 March 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 218
Quote blond Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2005 at 7:58am

Originally posted by DavidC


Since God is beyond human understanding, it seems logical Jesus divinity
is beyond our understanding too.

DavidC

This statement calls to mind the introduction of many Bibles, "... translated from the Original tongues of the Lost Books of the Bible".

The Books were not lost, they were hidden by those who altered the words of the Books from their original places. Substituting the revealed word of God for their own word, then telling the people that it was from God.

I appreciate the Western man for one great reason alone. While all the other peoples of the Earth looked up at the sky and saw the rain come down, the Eastern people said, "Allah is great for giving us the rain". But, the Western man said, "I can do that" and seeded the clouds. While the people of the East marvelled at the Sun in the sky, Western man said, "I can do that" and produced nuclear power. While the people of the East marvelled at the Moon circling the Earth, Western man put up satellites and rockets.

Western man does not deal with Allah in a "spooky" way. He understands the Law of Cause and Effect. For there to be a real effect, there had to be a real cause, not a mystery spooky god.

God is Real.



Edited by blond
IP IP Logged
DavidC
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 20 September 2001
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2211
Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2005 at 10:41am
But we do not believe we are God because we can seed clouds.

Christians believe Jesus was 100% man and 100% God =(200%).

We are not denying the 100% that is reality, but there is also knowledge
that can only be passed along through paradox, parable and symbolism.

Christianity seems to have much in common with Sufism in this regard,
but unfortunately the gnostic influences have been largely purged from
our religion and has left those aspects sterile.

DavidC
IP IP Logged
AhmadJoyia
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 20 March 2005
Location: Pakistan
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1161
Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2005 at 2:52pm

Originally posted by DavidC

.....
Christians believe Jesus was 100% man and 100% God =(200%).

We are not denying the 100% that is reality, but there is also knowledge
that can only be passed along through paradox, parable and symbolism.

DavidC

This christian belief is based on conjecture only and that too, derived through the books of unknown authors which were selectively chosen based upon the recommendations of concil of humans gathered almost 5 centuries after Jesus; merely a guess work. The total argument usually given in support of this kind of belief is by asking the question that; is it not possible that since God is all powerfull, in his infinite capacity, he can come to earth in a human form? This is inherrantly a flawed reasoning as one can ask a question on similar basis that can God make such a load heavy that he himself can't lift it? Any answer to this question would be selfcontradicting. This type of reasoning works only for the ignorant people who would put their beliefs on conjectural mysteries. It is for this very reason that quran ask them to leave the conjecture and follow the true path based on facts. However, since the time of Prophet Jesus, extremely little probability exists that anyone can figure out facts from their available resources. Hence, there is all the more logical reasons for them to study Islam and recognise God through it without any conjectures, paradoxes, parables and symbolism. 

IP IP Logged
Page  of 4 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com