Angel,

Message

   George,
From you: "The Jews understand the concept but don't believe it happened with Jesus, but at least they understand the concept."
No! George, The Jews don't believe at all in the concept. Trinity or Jesus being a God is not acceptable to Jews.
Have you read this before. I post below courtesy askmoses.com and hope you will pay attention to the views of Jews. Here it is:

Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus

Contents 

<Name@Withheld> wrote
Dear Rabbi, 
Why don't Jews believe in Jesus? Doesn't it say in the Psalms, "They pierced my hands and feet"? Doesn't Isaiah say, "Behold a virgin shall give birth"?

JESUS - NOT THE MESSIAH

Scriptural References 
In order to understand anything in the Torah one must look at the original Hebrew. You will see that the Christians distorted, changed and misinterpreted many of the Hebrew words in order to fit things into their beliefs. The two places that you mentioned are good examples. In Psalm 22:17 the Hebrew states "hikifuni ca'ari yaday veraglay" which means "they bound me (hikifuni) like a lion (ca-like ari-lion), my hands (yaday) and my feet (ve-and raglay-my feet). The Christians translate this as "they pierced my hands and feet". Nowhere in the entire Torah, Prophets and Writings do the words ca'ari or hikifuny mean anything remotely resembling "pierce". 
In Isaiah 7:14 the Hebrew states "hinei ha'almah harah veyoledet ben" "behold (hineih) the young woman (ha - the almah- young woman) is pregnant (harah) and shall give birth (ve-and yoledet-shall give birth) to a son (ben)". The Christians translate this as "behold a virgin shall give birth." They have made two mistakes (probably deliberate) in the one verse. They mistranslate "ha" as "a" instead of "the". They mistranslate "almah" as "virgin", when in fact the Hebrew word for virgin is "betulah". Aside from the fact that if you read the context of that prediction you will see clearly that it is predicting an event that was supposed to happen and be seen by king Achaz who lived 700 years before Jesus! 

Genealogy 
He was not descended from the House of David. According to Jewish law, tribal identification comes from the father's side, being Jewish, from the mother's side. According to Matthew 1, Joseph was descended from David (Although there are many contradictions between his genealogy there and that listed in Luke, however according to the same text, Joseph did not have sexual relations with Mary, therefore Jesus was not related to Joseph, and not a descendant of King David. 
Three answers to this problem are given in classic Christian sources: 

The genealogy is that of Mary - This is inadequate, since if he is claimed to be the Jewish messiah, and according to Jewish tradition he must be descended on his father's side, Mary's genealogy is irrelevant. 

He was adopted by Joseph -According to Jewish law, adoption does not change the status of the child. If an Israelite is adopted by a Cohen, (A descendant of Aaron the High Priest), the child does not become a Cohen, likewise if a descendant of David, adopts someone who is not, he does not become of the tribe of Judah and a descendant of David. 

It doesn't matter, he was a spiritual inheritor of King David - If it doesn't matter, why do Christian scriptures spend time establishing his genealogical pedigree? And if he is claimed to be the Jewish messiah, then according to Jewish tradition it does matter!

Messianic Predictions 
The main predictions concerning the Messiah are that he will bring peace to the world, gather the Jewish people from their exile to the land of Israel and rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. After Jesus' appearance, the Temple was destroyed, the Jews were exiled all over the world and we have not even had one day of peace in the past 2,000 years. (Many of the wars in fact were started and fought by followers of Jesus) These events are enough to show that he was not the messiah. 
The main Christian responses to these objections are: 

The Second Coming - First of all, we find this to be a contrived answer, since there is no mention of a second coming in the Jewish Bible. Second, why couldn't G-d accomplish His goals the first time round. Most importantly, the second coming idea is just an attempt at answering an obvious question but it certainly does not constitute proof of messianic claims. 

There is peace within his followers hearts - That is wonderful for them, but does that help the victims of the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Hundred Years War, the First World War, the Second World War etc. In each of the events that I mentioned most if not all the combatants, the violent oppressors and torturers where people who claimed to be followers of Jesus. And is peace in the heart a fulfillment of "swords into plowshares etc." 

Messiah's Qualifications 
Messiah is a prophet, a scholar and a pious king. Jesus made a prediction that "The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand." (Mark 1:15) That was 2000 years ago, has the kingdom of God come? Do you call the holocaust, Pol Pot and Stalin a world in which the kingdom of God has come? Jesus was not a great scholar - one of the requirements of the Messiah. Was Jesus a king? He was not anointed as king by a prophet (as was the rule in Jewish kings), he was not appointed by any judicial body as a leader and he did not rule over the Jewish people nor was he accepted by them. He was arrested, tortured and killed by the Romans like a common criminal. He had no army or government. The answer to my question is an obvious, "no." 

JESUS - NOT A DEITY

The Trinity 
The Christian idea of a trinity contradicts the most basic tenet of Judaism - that G-d is One. Jews have declared their belief in a single unified G-d twice daily ever since the giving of the Torah at Sinai - almost two thousand years before Christianity. 
The trinity suggests a three part deity: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19). 
In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry; one of the three cardinal sins for which a person should rather give up his life than transgress. The idea of the trinity is absolutely incompatible with Judaism. 

Physical Manifestation 
Christianity believes that G-d came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). 
The Torah states that G-d cannot not take any form.: 
"You will not be able to see My face, for no human can see my face and live" (Exodus 33:18-20) 
"You did not see any form on the day G-d spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of fire" (Deuteronomy 4:15) 
As little as we may know about G-d's nature, Judaism has always believed that G-d is Incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. G-d is Eternal, He is Infinite; above time and beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. 

CHANGES TO THE LAW
Christianity denies the eternal relevance of Torah Law, basing the concept of the New Testament on a mistranslation of a verse in Jeremia. 
In Jeremia 31:30 the Hebrew states: "Henei yamim baim Neum Hashem VeCharati Brit Chadash" They translate: "Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new Testament with the house of Israel " 
"Brit" does not mean Testament. Throughout Scripture "Brit" means covenant. See for example Genesis 17:2, 15:18 Exodus 24:8, Leviticus 26:42, Numbers 25:12. 
It is a fundamental principle of Judaism that the Torah received at Sinai will never be changed nor become obsolete. This concept is mentioned in the Torah no less than 24 times, with the words: 
"This is an eternal law for all generations" 
(Exodus 12:14, 12:17, 12:43, 27:21, 28:43, Leviticus 3:17, 7:36, 10:9, 16:29, 16:31, 16:34, 17:7, 23:14, 23:21, 23:31, 23:41, 24:3, Numbers 10:8, 15:15, 19:10, 19:21, 18:23, 35:29, Deuteronomy29:28) 
It is absurd to accept the Divine origin of the Torah yet deny it's eternal relevance. Judaism is a religion of action; it has always taught that through performance of the commandments one declares the belief of the heart. To dispense with the legal body of the Torah and reduce it to a book of morals would cut it down to less than half it's size. Can this really be the meaning of those words an eternal law for all generations? 

Recommended Reading
For a lengthier discussion on this subject I suggest the books, "The Real Messiah," by Aryeh Kaplan, "Faith Strengthened" by Isaac Troki, "You Take Jesus, I'll Take God"and "Their Hollow Inheritance" by Michoel Drazin. (available at Jewish bookstores everywhere)

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Author	Message
BMZ Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1852	Posted: 23 April 2006 at 8:49am
	George, From you: "The Jews understand the concept but don't believe it happened with Jesus, but at least they understand the concept." No! George, The Jews don't believe at all in the concept. Trinity or Jesus being a God is not acceptable to Jews. Have you read this before. I post below courtesy askmoses.com and hope you will pay attention to the views of Jews. Here it is: Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus Contents <Name@Withheld> wrote Dear Rabbi, Why don't Jews believe in Jesus? Doesn't it say in the Psalms, "They pierced my hands and feet"? Doesn't Isaiah say, "Behold a virgin shall give birth"? JESUS - NOT THE MESSIAH Scriptural References In order to understand anything in the Torah one must look at the original Hebrew. You will see that the Christians distorted, changed and misinterpreted many of the Hebrew words in order to fit things into their beliefs. The two places that you mentioned are good examples. In Psalm 22:17 the Hebrew states *"hikifuni ca'ari yaday veraglay"* which means "they bound me (hikifuni) like a lion (ca-like ari-lion), my hands (yaday) and my feet (ve-and raglay-my feet). The Christians translate this as "they pierced my hands and feet". Nowhere in the entire Torah, Prophets and Writings do the words *ca'ari* or *hikifuny* mean anything remotely resembling "pierce". In Isaiah 7:14 the Hebrew states *"hinei ha'almah harah veyoledet ben"* "behold (hineih) the young woman (ha - the almah- young woman) is pregnant (harah) and shall give birth (ve-and yoledet-shall give birth) to a son (ben)". The Christians translate this as "behold a virgin shall give birth." They have made two mistakes (probably deliberate) in the one verse. They mistranslate *"ha"* as "a" instead of "the". They mistranslate *"almah"* as "virgin", when in fact the Hebrew word for virgin is *"betulah". Aside from the fact that if you read the context of that prediction you will see clearly that it is predicting an event that was supposed to happen and be seen by king Achaz who lived 700 years before Jesus! Genealogy* He was not descended from the House of David. According to Jewish law, tribal identification comes from the father's side, being Jewish, from the mother's side. According to Matthew 1, Joseph was descended from David (Although there are many contradictions between his genealogy there and that listed in Luke, however according to the same text, Joseph did not have sexual relations with Mary, therefore Jesus was not related to Joseph, and not a descendant of King David. Three answers to this problem are given in classic Christian sources: The genealogy is that of Mary - This is inadequate, since if he is claimed to be the Jewish messiah, and according to Jewish tradition he must be descended on his father's side, Mary's genealogy is irrelevant. He was adopted by Joseph -According to Jewish law, adoption does not change the status of the child. If an Israelite is adopted by a Cohen, (A descendant of Aaron the High Priest), the child does not become a Cohen, likewise if a descendant of David, adopts someone who is not, he does not become of the tribe of Judah and a descendant of David. It doesn't matter, he was a spiritual inheritor of King David - If it doesn't matter, why do Christian scriptures spend time establishing his genealogical pedigree? And if he is claimed to be the Jewish messiah, then according to Jewish tradition it does matter! Messianic Predictions The main predictions concerning the Messiah are that he will bring peace to the world, gather the Jewish people from their exile to the land of Israel and rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. After Jesus' appearance, the Temple was destroyed, the Jews were exiled all over the world and we have not even had one day of peace in the past 2,000 years. (Many of the wars in fact were started and fought by followers of Jesus) These events are enough to show that he was not the messiah. The main Christian responses to these objections are: The Second Coming - First of all, we find this to be a contrived answer, since there is no mention of a second coming in the Jewish Bible. Second, why couldn't G-d accomplish His goals the first time round. Most importantly, the second coming idea is just an attempt at answering an obvious question but it certainly does not constitute proof of messianic claims. There is peace within his followers hearts - That is wonderful for them, but does that help the victims of the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Hundred Years War, the First World War, the Second World War etc. In each of the events that I mentioned most if not all the combatants, the violent oppressors and torturers where people who claimed to be followers of Jesus. And is peace in the heart a fulfillment of "swords into plowshares etc." Messiah's Qualifications Messiah is a prophet, a scholar and a pious king. Jesus made a prediction that "The time is fulfilled, the kingdom of God is at hand." (Mark 1:15) That was 2000 years ago, has the kingdom of God come? Do you call the holocaust, Pol Pot and Stalin a world in which the kingdom of God has come? Jesus was not a great scholar - one of the requirements of the Messiah. Was Jesus a king? He was not anointed as king by a prophet (as was the rule in Jewish kings), he was not appointed by any judicial body as a leader and he did not rule over the Jewish people nor was he accepted by them. He was arrested, tortured and killed by the Romans like a common criminal. He had no army or government. The answer to my question is an obvious, "no." JESUS - NOT A DEITY The Trinity The Christian idea of a trinity contradicts the most basic tenet of Judaism - that G-d is One. Jews have declared their belief in a single unified G-d twice daily ever since the giving of the Torah at Sinai - almost two thousand years before Christianity. The trinity suggests a three part deity: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19). In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry; one of the three cardinal sins for which a person should rather give up his life than transgress. The idea of the trinity is absolutely incompatible with Judaism. Physical Manifestation Christianity believes that G-d came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). The Torah states that G-d cannot not take any form.: *"You will not be able to see My face, for no human can see my face and live" (Exodus 33:18-20)* *"You did not see any form on the day G-d spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of fire" (Deuteronomy 4:15)* As little as we may know about G-d's nature, Judaism has always believed that G-d is Incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. G-d is Eternal, He is Infinite; above time and beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. CHANGES TO THE LAW Christianity denies the eternal relevance of Torah Law, basing the concept of the New Testament on a mistranslation of a verse in Jeremia. In Jeremia 31:30 the Hebrew states: *"Henei yamim baim Neum Hashem VeCharati Brit Chadash"* They translate: "Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new Testament with the house of Israel " "Brit" does not mean Testament. Throughout Scripture "Brit" means covenant. See for example Genesis 17:2, 15:18 Exodus 24:8, Leviticus 26:42, Numbers 25:12. It is a fundamental principle of Judaism that the Torah received at Sinai will never be changed nor become obsolete. This concept is mentioned in the Torah no less than 24 times, with the words: *"This is an eternal law for all generations"* (Exodus 12:14, 12:17, 12:43, 27:21, 28:43, Leviticus 3:17, 7:36, 10:9, 16:29, 16:31, 16:34, 17:7, 23:14, 23:21, 23:31, 23:41, 24:3, Numbers 10:8, 15:15, 19:10, 19:21, 18:23, 35:29, Deuteronomy29:28) It is absurd to accept the Divine origin of the Torah yet deny it's eternal relevance. Judaism is a religion of action; it has always taught that through performance of the commandments one declares the belief of the heart. To dispense with the legal body of the Torah and reduce it to a book of morals would cut it down to less than half it's size. Can this really be the meaning of those words an eternal law for all generations? Recommended Reading For a lengthier discussion on this subject I suggest the books, "The Real Messiah," by Aryeh Kaplan, "Faith Strengthened" by Isaac Troki, "You Take Jesus, I'll Take God"and "Their Hollow Inheritance" by Michoel Drazin. (available at Jewish bookstores everywhere) © 2000 Ohr Somayach International - All rights reserved. This publication may be distributed to another person intact without prior permission. We also encourage you to include this material in other publications, such as synagogue newsletters. However, we ask that you contact us beforehand for permission, and then send us a sample issue. This publication is available via E-Mail Ohr Somayach Institutions is an international network of Yeshivot and outreach centers, with branches in North America, Europe, South Africa and South America. The Central Campus in Jerusalem provides a full range of educational services for over 685 full-time students. The Jewish Learning Exchange (JLE) of Ohr Somayach offers summer and winter programs in Israel that attract hundreds of university students from around the world for 3 to 8 weeks of study and touring. The Ohr Somayach Home Page is hosted by TeamGenesis Copyright © 2000 Ohr Somayach International. Send us feedback Dedication opportunities are available for Ask The Rabbi. Please contact us for details.
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George Senior Member Joined: 14 April 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 406	Posted: 24 April 2006 at 5:17am
	BMZ: From me: "The Jews understand the concept but don't believe it happened with Jesus, but at least they understand the concept." From you: No! George, The Jews don't believe at all in the concept. Trinity or Jesus being a God is not acceptable to Jews. I did not say that they believed the concept. I said they understood the concept. See the difference? See: http://www.menorah.org/trinity1.html If the Jews didn't understand the concept and think that it fit into Jewish theology, then how do you explain that so many Jews have become Christians? Messanic Jews. I also read what they have to say. Have you read this before. I post below courtesy askmoses.com and hope you will pay attention to the views of Jews. Here it is: I have read all of the Jewish objections against Jesus being their Messiah. I would think under the circumstances--the importance of Jesus being the King Messiah, my Messiah and your Messiah--you would not let what the Jews think decide what you think. Edited by George
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George Senior Member Joined: 14 April 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 406	Posted: 24 April 2006 at 10:14am
	Angel, Jesus Christ Never Said He Was God?, by Rich Deem For "not having ever claimed to be God," Jesus made some pretty arrogant statements. For example, in response to Thomas, Jesus said "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." (John 14:6) From this statement alone, one would have to wonder why nobody could come to God directly. Maybe Jesus was really saying that He was God? Many members of Christian cults claim that Jesus never said He was God. However, the biblical evidence shows that this concept is false. This page examines the claims of divinity that Jesus made about Himself. For other biblical passages that claim that Jesus is God, see Jesus Christ is God (YHVH). It is true that Jesus never said, "I am God" directly. However, most of His teachings were done through parables, and not by direct statements. His disciples asked Him why He taught this way. His answer was: And He answered and said to them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him shall more be given, and he shall have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand." (Matthew 13:11-13) Those who make the claim that Jesus never claimed to be God are blind and deaf to God's word, by their own choices. Jesus claims to be the Son of Man Although the title "Son of Man" may seem fairly innocuous, it is, in fact, a title of the Messiah, of whom the book of Daniel claims that all people will serve and that His kingdom would never end: "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations, and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14) Obviously, if the Son of Man were only human, He would not be able to establish an eternal kingdom. Likewise, He would not be able to convince all peoples to serve Him. Such abilities and honors are reserved for God alone. Jesus claims to be the Son of God The Bible makes the direct claim that Jesus is the Son of God.¹ Many others, including the disciples,² a Roman Centurian,³ angels,⁴ demons⁵, John the Baptist,⁶ Martha,⁷ Saul (Paul),⁸ and the Ethiopian Eunich⁹ make the same claim. Others said that Jesus Himself made the claim to be the Son of God.¹⁰ The gospels also indicate that Jesus Himself made the statement or acknowledged that He was the Son of God many times.¹¹ Virtually all cults will acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God, as if the title confers no special meaning or only second class status. This assumption is unrealistic, since no other prophet ever called himself the Son of God. The Jewish leaders of the time knew exactly what this title implied - that Jesus was claiming to be God Himself: For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. (John 5:18) Claiming to be the Son of God also conferred the title of Messiah or the anointed One. Psalms 2 talks about the Messiah (mashiach), whom it says is God's Son.¹² This great messianic Psalm warns the reader to do homage to the Son and take refuge in Him,¹³ since He will rule the nations and judge the earth.¹⁴ Jesus claims to be the Messiah (the Christ) The Bible says that Jesus is the Christ, or Messiah - the anointed One of God. Jesus Himself made the claim or acknowledged that He was the Messiah.¹⁵ The title is especially significant with regard to the question at hand - is Jesus God? The Old Testament tells us that the Messiah is God and the eternal Father: For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6) Other prophecies of the Old Testament tell us that the Messiah would be God: "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness. (Jeremiah 23:5-6) The title, "The LORD Our Righteousness" indicates that the Messiah is God. The Hebrew word translated "LORD" is yhvh (Yahweh), which is the personal name of God. Jesus claims to have the attributes of God Jesus claimed to have many of the attributes that God alone possess. Jesus claimed to have sent the prophets: "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, (Matthew 23:34) However, the Old Testament indicates that God sent the prophets.¹⁶ Therefore, Jesus was claiming the authority that was previously reserved only for God. Jesus claimed that His origins are from heaven, whereas men are from the world: "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man. (John 3:13) And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. (John 8:23) Not only did Jesus claim to come from heaven, but He said that it was "my kingdom" Isn't heaven God's kingdom? that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:30) Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting, that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." (John 18:36) Jesus claimed to have existed before He was born in Bethlehem: "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds. (John 8:58-59) The claim included the term "I am" - a reference God made of Himself when talking to Moses.¹⁷ The Jews immediately recognized that Jesus was claiming to be God and attempted to stone Him. Jesus also claimed to have existed "before the world began": "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (John 17:5) This statement is an obvious claim to deity. Not only did Jesus claim to exist before the creation of the universe, but He claimed to share the glory of God! Jesus also claimed that He had "all authority... in heaven and on earth" and that everything of God was His.¹⁸ And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." (Matthew 28:18) Jesus claimed to be the supreme judge who will exercise all judgment.¹⁹ However, there are at least 50 verses in the Bible that claim that Jehovah God will judge the earth (see Who Will Judge Mankind?). Jesus claimed to be the one to separate the "sheep from the goats".²⁰ However, the book of Ezekiel says that Jehovah God will do this.²¹ Jesus claimed to be the resurrection and the life.²² He said that He would personally raise everyone from the dead.²³ These are all attributes of God. Jesus claimed to be Lord of the Sabbath,²⁴ although the Bible indicates that God held such title.²⁵ Jesus claimed the ability to forgive sins.²⁶ Even the Jews recognized that this was a function of God alone.²⁷ Jesus claimed that He would return in the clouds in glory.²⁸ Isaiah makes the same claim for Jehovah God.²⁹ Obviously, Jesus was making a claim to deity. Jesus claimed to be the light of the world who provides salvation.³⁰ In the Psalms, David tells us that Jehovah God is our light and salvation.³¹ Jesus also claimed to be the way to life³² - an assertion that is made for God.³³ Jesus said that He was the one who searched the hearts and minds,³⁴ gives eternal life,³⁵ and rewards those who follow Him.³⁶ All of these characteristics are found only in God.^{37 , 38, 39} Jesus said He was the good shepherd,⁴⁰ who searches for His sheep.⁴¹ These are claims made of God in the Old Testament.^{42, 43} Jesus claimed to be the fountain of living water.⁴⁴ This is a clear reference to what God said of Himself as recorded by the prophet Jeremiah.⁴⁵ Jesus said He would give rest to those who found Him.⁴⁶ The same claim is made of God in the book of Exodus.⁴⁷ Jesus claimed to send the Holy Spirit (Helper).⁴⁸ The same claim is made for God.⁴⁹ Jesus said that He raised Himself from the dead,⁵⁰ even though the Bible says that God did it.⁵¹ Among Jesus' parting words, He told His disciples to baptize new followers in "the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20) It should be noted that the other two names (Father and Holy Spirit) are names for God. In fact, the text says specifically that they should be baptized in the name (singular), not names, of the three persons mentioned. In order to be one name, they must all represent God. Jesus claimed that His disciples would be unable to do anything of significance without His power. Such a statement is a clear claim of divine power. "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. (John 15:5) Jesus accepts the title of God One of the least favorite exchanges in the Bible from the cults perspective is the one that occurred between Jesus and Thomas after Jesus rose from the dead. Thomas, the ever-skeptical disciple, was unconvinced that Jesus had risen from the dead and wanted to see direct proof. However, when the Lord Jesus appeared to him, his only reaction was "My Lord and my God!" Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." (John 20:28-29) What was Jesus' reaction to the title of God? Did Jesus rebuke him for calling Him "God"? No! In fact, Jesus praised Thomas for his belief. And the belief that Thomas exhibited was that Jesus was Lord and God. If Jesus were not God, accepting such a statement for truth would be a grievous sin. Either Jesus is God or He would have to be a sinner! Jesus claims to be God The cults tend to acknowledge that Jesus and God were "one in purpose." However, this is a rather weak claim. Every disciple of Jesus Christ has the goal of being "one in purpose" with God the Father. Even so, Jesus never used the word "purpose" in His claims of oneness with God. "I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." (John 10:30-33) Obviously, the Jews did not think that this claim of being one with the Father referred to purpose. They knew that He was claiming equality with God, which is why they tried to stone Him. In addition, Jesus said outright that He was Lord⁵² and claimed to be the first and the last,⁵³ an obvious trait reserved for God.⁵⁴ Jesus accepts worship reserved for God alone Some of the most significant statements Jesus made regarding His deity actually involve an argument from silence - what Jesus did not say. In no less than 12 instances, Jesus was worshipped by various people - the wise men,⁵⁵ the disciples,⁵⁶ a leper,⁵⁷ a synagogue official,⁵⁸ a woman of Canaan,⁵⁹ Mother of Zebedee's children,⁶⁰ a blind man,⁶¹ angels,⁶² and everybody in heaven.⁶³ The Bible clearly indicates that God alone is to be worshipped.⁶⁴ Even Jesus proclaimed this to Satan, when he tempted Him and demanded that He worship him.⁶⁵ Some members of cults claim that the people who worshipped Jesus did so improperly. There are a number of examples where people attempted to worship the disciples⁶⁶ or angels⁶⁷ and were warned not to do so by the parties being worshipped. Jehovah's Witnesses claim that Jesus is the archangel Michael. However, the Bible clearly indicates that angels are not to be worshipped.⁶⁸ The problem arises that J esus never told anyone to stop worshipping Him. If Jesus were not God, to say nothing in the face of worship would be a huge sin. So, if Jesus is not God, then He sinned in allowing others to worship Him. If He sinned, then Jesus could not even be the Savior, since the Savior must be without spot or blemish. By claiming that Jesus is not God, the cults turn Him into a liar and impostor. Conclusion Jesus never claimed to be God? It would seem from this large collection of sayings that Jesus made the claim to divinity constantly, in many different ways. Those who claim Jesus never said he was God are not reading his claims with the understanding of the true nature of God, as revealed in the Old and New Testaments. Jesus was constantly giving people advice. One of His favorite sayings is recorded below. It's good advice for those who really want to know Jesus. *"He who has ears to hear, let him hear."* Source: http://www.godandscience.org/cults/jesus.html The article is 10 pages long and has lots of references. You can clink on the first reference 1 and you will get the whole list of references, but it is tedious to click on each as they come up in the document. I found the best way to read it or print it with all the notations organized with the current text is to use the Printable PDF version option at the end of the article and save it in Word and then print it for ease of reading. Doing it this way puts all the references in the proper place on each section.
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fredifreeloader Guest Group Joined: 17 February 2006 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 456	Posted: 24 April 2006 at 10:28am
	yes *bmz* - you have not answered these points about the claims Christ made for himself, either on this thread or on the other thread (emperor constantine) - well there are so many of them, perhaps the "forgery" of it all is too much for you, or perhaps you just cant face the fact that it might not be forgery
	for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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George Senior Member Joined: 14 April 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 406	Posted: 24 April 2006 at 11:31am
	*Originally posted by fredifreeloader* yes *bmz* - you have not answered these points about the claims Christ made for himself, either on this thread or on the other thread (emperor constantine) - well there are so many of them, perhaps the "forgery" of it all is too much for you, or perhaps you just cant face the fact that it might not be forgery You know, Fred, I am insulted everytime a Muslim says something is "forged" in the Bible. I think that we should take each of our Holy Books and give them credit for being an accurate depiction of the originals and base are discussions on what is being said. We can discuss different interpretations of verses--that is fair--but if one claims forgery, I believe that they have crossed the line. Christians could do the same with the Koran, but I don't think the Muslims here would tolerate that and they, too, would be insulted. Crying forgery does not promote a better understanding between Muslims and Christians or Jews, for that matter.
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BMZ Moderator Group Joined: 03 April 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1852	Posted: 24 April 2006 at 5:18pm
	To: fredi, I will respond to this when I have more time on my hands. Those are all just Claims and Claims but there is no conclusive proof. The onus to prove Jesus is or was a God is not on me but it is on Christians. Putting claims before me does not prove that Jesus was God. If he were God, all the disciples should have had a common statement, not a statement by the doubting Thomas or another. To: George, Please do not feel insulted. Christians do the same with Qur'aan and we have seen this mutually on other internet boards. As long as one can remain civil, it is fine to discuss. I will quote you from Christian sources about the forgeries in the Bible. You must have read the post from Moses.com that I quoted above. I have three major tenders to go by 2nd May 2006 and I will surely raise a hell after that. In the mean time, forget the "Claims', they make a poor case.
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George Senior Member Joined: 14 April 2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 406	Posted: 25 April 2006 at 7:31am
	*Originally posted by bmzsp* To: fredi, I will respond to this when I have more time on my hands. Those are all just Claims and Claims but there is no conclusive proof. The onus to prove Jesus is or was a God is not on me but it is on Christians. Christians don't have to prove anything to you. You are free to believe what you want to believe. Putting claims before me does not prove that Jesus was God. If he were God, all the disciples should have had a common statement, not a statement by the doubting Thomas or another. Read the New Testament, BMZ. This time read it without looking through the lens of a Muslim. To: George, Please do not feel insulted. Christians do the same with Qur'aan and we have seen this mutually on other internet boards. As long as one can remain civil, it is fine to discuss. I will quote you from Christian sources about the forgeries in the Bible. Leave it alone BMZ. You will not find me insulting the Koran on this site. This site does not provide the leaway that you have enjoyed on other sites. You are not discussing, you are making allegations. If I wanted to I could bring all kinds of allegations against the Koran from former Muslims. Don't turn what could be a way to bring Muslims and Christians together into what will drive them apart. You must have read the post from Moses.com that I quoted above. I have three major tenders to go by 2nd May 2006 and I will surely raise a hell after that. In the mean time, forget the "Claims', they make a poor case. Edited by George
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Servetus Male Christian Senior Member Joined: 04 April 2001 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2097	Posted: 25 April 2006 at 9:36am
	(Angel) “Jesus is God (or not)” (Me) “I think, according to the Catholic, or what is the same thing, “universal” (Trinitarian) credo, it is most accurate to say that Jesus is “God, the Son.” (Fredi) “well, roman catholics refer officially to mary as the mother of God, therefore, according to them, Jesus is God” It is a matter of logic or, better yet, of “alternative logical systems,” I think. At any rate, the fact remains that, as I understand, according to the Catholic, whether Roman or otherwise, dogma of the Trinity, it is a heresy to confuse the “Son” with the “Father.” Those who claim that, for example, “God, the Father” died upon the cross are evidently guilty of the heresy and therefore sin of “patripassionism.” (Israfil) “Interesting and in addition to that Fred mentions another Catholic belief that Mary is the "mother of God." I guess believing in God doesn't have to make sense.” For what it is worth, I often think of {important: dogma of } the Trinity as being somewhat analogous to a Zen koan (in later Buddhist tradition). Consider the “Master/student” dialogues and how they are intent, at times, to at once satisfy and yet defy human rationality. Anyway, speaking of making sense, have you ever seen this “shield of the Trinity” diagram? Perhaps, by viewing the (attempt) to diagrammatically represent the (proposed) Trinity one might better understand my original statement above, that it is most accurate to say, according to the credo, that Jesus is “God, the Son.” Basic "Shield of the Trinity" diagram (first click here and note text that follows): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fid ei-basic.png "The links are non-directional — this is emphasized in one thirteenth-century manuscript by writing the link captions "EST" or "NON EST" twice as many times (going in both directions within each link), and is shown in some modern versions of the diagram by superimposing each occurrence of the "is" / "is not" text on a double-headed arrow ↔ (rather than enclosing it within a link). So the following twelve propositions can be read off the diagram: "The Father is God" "The Son is God" "The Holy Spirit is God" "God is the Father" "God is the Son" "God is the Holy Spirit" "The Father is not the Son" "The Son is not the Father" "The Father is not the Holy Spirit" "The Holy Spirit is not the Father" "The Son is not the Holy Spirit" "The Holy Spirit is not the Son" Welcome to paradox. Servetus Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_of_the_Trinity Edited by Servetus
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Interfaith Dialogue
IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue

Topic: Jesus is God (or not)( Topic Closed)
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Why Jews Don't Believe in Jesus

JESUS - NOT THE MESSIAH

JESUS - NOT A DEITY

CHANGES TO THE LAW

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Angel,

Jesus Christ Never Said He Was God?, by Rich Deem

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Jesus claims to be God

Jesus accepts worship reserved for God alone

Conclusion