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bullet Topic: Jesus is God (or not)
    Posted: 21 April 2006 at 9:35am

To those Christians who keep saying that Jesus is God, and that the Catholic's believe this, can you please bring some evidence from scriptures.

Isn't it the Trinitarians that believe Jesus is God, not all christians and that the Nicene creed came from them?.

All my life I have known that Catholic don't believe that Jesus is God, despite the "In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit".

Even in the bible Jesus doesn't not claim to be God.

God and Jesus are separate beings, otherwise we wouldn't be having Son of God or God's only begotten son nor would we have Jesus speaking to God.

I know in the book that there is god and then there is God, there is a difference between the two. In some parts Jesus says he is god just like the rest of us, BUT it is in no way that its meant to be "God" the Almighty Father.

When you put the proper meaning/use of god/God in the scriptures then you get a slightly different meaning and understanding.

Some peope do miss some vital information

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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bullet Posted: 21 April 2006 at 9:36am

100 verses that show God and Jesus to be different:

Matthew 27:46

Mark 1:24

Mark 10:18

Mark 15:34

Mark 16:19

Luke 2:52

Luke 6:12

Luke 18:19

John 3:2

John 8:42

John 8:54

John 9:3

John 13:31

John 14:1*

John 17:3

John 20:17

Acts 2:22

Acts 2:32

Acts 2:36

Acts 3:13

Acts 4:10

Acts 5:30

Acts 7:55

Acts 10:36

Acts 10:38

Acts 13:23

Acts 20:21

Romans 1:7

Romans 1:8

Romans 2:16

Romans 3:22

Romans 4:24

Romans 5:1

Romans 5:11

Romans 5:15

Romans 5:17

Romans 6:23

Romans 7:25

Romans 8:34

Romans 10:9

Romans 15:5

Romans 15:6

Romans 16:27

1 Corinthians 1:3

1 Corinthians 1:9

1 Corinthians 1:30

1 Corinthians 8:6

1 Corinthians 15:57

2 Corinthians 1:2

2 Corinthians 1:3

2 Corinthians 11:31

2 Corinthians 13:14

Galatians 1:1

Galatians 1:3

Ephesians 1:2

Ephesians 1:3

Ephesians 1:17

Ephesians 2:6

Ephesians 6:23

Philippians 1:2

Philippians 2:11

Colossians 1:3*

Colossians 3:17

1 Thessalonians 1:1

1 Thessalonians 1:3

1 Thessalonians 3:11

1 Thessalonians 3:13

1 Thessalonians 4:14

1 Thessalonians 5:9

2 Thessalonians 1:1

2 Thessalonians 1:2

2 Thessalonians 1:12

2 Thessalonians 2:16

1 Timothy 1:1

1 Timothy 1:2

1 Timothy 2:5

1 Timothy 5:21

1 Timothy 6:3

2 Timothy 1:1

2 Timothy 1:2

2 Timothy 4:1

Titus 1:4

Titus 2:13

Philemon 1:3

Hebrews 13:20

James 1:1

1 Peter 1:2

1 Peter 2:5

2 Peter 1:1

2 Peter 1:2

1 John 5:1*

1 John 5:20

2 John 1:3

Jude 1:1

Jude 1:4

Jude 1:21

Jude 1:25

Revelation 1:1

Revelation 1:2

Revelation 14:12

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bullet Posted: 21 April 2006 at 9:38am

http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity-04.htm

Part 04(True meaning of the word "God")

I think that it is important at this stage that I point out a fact that is quite often overlooked today.
The word "God", in the Old and New Testament are translated from many different words and each original Hebrew or Greek word for God have a wide range of uses.

Theos {theh'-os} is by far the most common Greek word that we translate as God or god. Below are the possible meanings of the word 'theos'.

1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2) the Godhead
3) spoken of the only and true God
3a) refers to the things of God
3b) his counsels, interests, things due to him
4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
4a) God's representative or viceregent
4a1) of magistrates and judges

So the Father is God because of his authority. However God the author also sends messengers with his authority, so when our Father anoints someone to speak His words, that person is given the title god whether he be an angel or a man. In addition, someone or something that takes takes the place of God is also called a god, a false god.

So looks look at some biblical verses that apply the word God (Theos) to denote different personalities.

Below we see a verse where the word 'theos' is used when referring to the Father.

Ephesians 1:3 (English-NIV)
Praise be to the God (theos) and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Now you will see a verse where the Greek word 'theos' is used to describe Jesus.

John 20:28-29 (English-NIV) 
28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God! (theos)"
29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

The word 'theos' in the next verse is used to describe Satan as he is the author of this world/age.

2 Corinthians 4:4 (English-NIV)
The god (theos) of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God (theos).

The word (theos) is also used to describe Man see below.

John 10:34 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods (theos)'

The Old Testament was written in Hebrew and again we see that the word "God" can apply to our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, Angelic & Demonic powers, idols and mankind. 

The NIV & NASB translate the following 3 words as God "el" "eloah" & "elohim"
Each is a generic term, meaning "God" or "mighty one".
Normally when one of these words occur in the OT, it designates either the true God or something that the pagan nations viewed as a god. In only a few instances are these words used of angels or human beings.

Below is a scripture that shows that the Father is God.

Malachi 2:10 (English-NIV)
Have we not all one Father ? Did not one God (El) create us?
Why do we profane the covenant of our fathers by breaking faith with one another?

Next I will show you a verse where the Hebrew word "eloah" is used to describe Jesus.
We will be looking at this scripture in more depth in Part 5 (Scriptures that are used to support the Trinity doctrine).

Isaiah 9:6 (English-NIV)
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God (El), Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Next we can see that the word god is used to denote idols.

Exodus 20:23 (English-NIV)
Do not make any gods (Elohim) to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods (Elohim) of silver or gods (Elohim) of gold.

The word "Elohim" is the most common word that is translated God in the Old Testament.

Genesis 1:1 (English-NIV) says:
In the beginning God (Elohim) created the heavens and the earth.

"Elohim" is also used to describe Man. See next the verse.

Psalms 82:6 (English-NIV)
"I said, `You are "gods" (Elohim); you are all sons of the Most High.'

Even angels are called gods in Psalm 97:7. This verse is actually quoted in the Hebrews 1:6 and it is referring to the Angels.

Psalm 97:7
All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols; worship him, all you gods (Elohim)!

These scriptures show us that the word God is actually a term and is not always used to describe the Most High God, rather it is a term that can apply to many types of authority. I think that it is very important that we read each verse in its correct context e.g. The Most High God is completely different to the god of this age. In other words the type of God that is being referred to is determined by the adjective or context of the sentence. It is incorrect to read the word 'God' as the Most High God in every case. In fact the very term 'Most High God' leads us to conclude that there must be lesser gods.

We know that the word 'Elohim' is a term and not a name, but does God have a name? Yes he does, his name is YHWH which is called the "tetragrammaton," meaning "the four letters," and it is the revealed personal name of God, which scholars translate as Yahweh, Jehovah, Yahvah amongst others. Now there is no such letter in Hebrew to make the sound of a J. and many Hebrew names contain an emphasis on *Yah*, including Jesus who's name is actually 'Yahshua' in sound. But the translation Yahweh is not actually a translation of the tetragrammaton, it is a transliteration meaning the sounds of those original Hebrew letters have been reproduced into another language. Names should never really be translated from one language to another. They should always be transliterated as are most Biblical names. For example, Abraham in Hebrew is pronounced Abrawhawm; Sarah is pronounced Sawraw. Today if President Bush goes to Germany they will pronounce his name George Bush, they won't change it into a German word. So the name of Yahweh should be pronounced exactly the same in all languages.

God first reveals his name in Exodus.3:15 and Psalm 135:13
And Elohim said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YHWH, Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

God's response to Moses, lets those that have understanding, that 'God' is not a name, but a title and as I have already shown, this particular title can refer to others including man, angel and false gods. Therefore when we read the word God in the bible, it is important to consider the context in which it is written.

Now YHWH declares in Psalm 2:7 the following:

"I will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

Therefore YHWH (God) is the Father of Jesus. Jesus is not YHWH. Jesus is the Son of YHWH, otherwise known as the Son of God.

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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bullet Posted: 21 April 2006 at 9:40am

http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/trinity-03.htm

Part 03 (Who is Jesus?)

Matthew 3:17 (English-NIV)
"And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased"

If the Father is God, then who is Jesus and where did he come from ?
Again the scriptures are very clear with the identity of Jesus.
Jesus asked this very question himself to Peter and Jesus commended Peter for his answer, in fact Jesus built his Church on this Truth and it is a pillar of the foundation that was laid by Jesus and the Apostles. To preach that Jesus is not the the Son of God and the Christ is to preach another gospel.

In Matthew 16:13-17 (English-NIV) it says
13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples,
"Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

Notice that Peter didn't say to Jesus, "You are God".
If Jesus were God then this would have been the perfect opportunity to declare that.
Many people today given this opportunity would probably declare that Jesus is God. So why didn't Peter just say that Jesus was God as most who believe in the Trinity would have. Because this revelation didn't come from man, but from the Father. Also the Father himself not only revealed this truth to Peter, but God our Father also declared this truth to James and John and Peter again with Elijah and Moses as witnesses in the following scripture:

Mark 9:7 (English-NIV)
Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!"

So who are we to argue or change this truth?
See also
Matthew 17:5 for a parallel account and 2 Peter 1:17 as confirmation

It is also interesting to note that the demons never referred to Jesus as God. They referred to him as the Son of God. See Matthew 8:29 (English-NIV)
"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"

Luke 4:41 (English-NIV)
Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, "You are the Son of God!" But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew he was the Christ.

Even Satan didn't refer to Jesus as God but rather the Son of God.

See Matthew 4:3-6 (English-NIV)
3 The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
4 Jesus answered, "It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God."
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6 "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "`He will command his angels
concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'

Philippians 2:8-11 (English-NIV) Shows us that eventually everyone will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father. This is the correct confession. If everyone will eventually confess this truth, then why not start now. To declare that Jesus Christ is God is a different confession and shows a lack of understanding about who Jesus really is.

8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death,  even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Many today do not understand that Lord and God are 2 different words. Just as Pharaoh was the true ruler of Egypt, he gave his authority to Joseph who was Lord over all the Pharaoh's kingdom. It must also be noted that Lord and LORD are 2 different words. The Father is LORD and Jesus is Lord. Translators capitalize the name of God as LORD which causes this confusion. So Jesus being Lord is not the same as LORD in the OT. Lord in the Old Testament comes from the name of God, YHWH. That is also why it is written that the Father is the one true God and Jesus is the Lord.

To say that Jesus is the LORD is to say that he is the one true God (YHWH) and it is not correct and nor is it taught in scripture. When referring to Jesus, he is Lord and we know that there are many lords. Landlords, warlords, lords over kingdoms etc. But God made Jesus Lord over all that is his (God's).

Acts 2:36 (English NIV)
"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Acts 10:36 (English NIV)
You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

Now the following 7 scriptures reveal Jesus true identity.
These scripture do not mention a Trinity or even hint at such a thought.
If you want to believe in the real Jesus, then believe these next scriptures, and know that they were inspired by God himself. Trust in the scriptures and not the cleverly devised doctrines of man.

Colossians 1:12-16 (English-NIV)
12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the kingdom of light.
13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Hebrews 1:1-6 (English-NIV)
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father" Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

Revelation 1:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,
6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Fatherhood him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

John 1:1 (English-NIV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.

Ephesians 1:22
And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,

Revelation 3:14 (English-KJV)
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

John 1:3 (English-NIV)
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

These  7 passages of scripture show us the following:

  1. God has spoken to us through the Prophets and now his Son.
  2. The Son is that exact brightness of God's glory.
  3. He is the express image of God.
  4. God sustains all things by his Word (Jesus is the Word of God).
  5. He is seated at the right hand of God
  6. He inherited a name more superior to the Angels.
  7. God became a Father when he begat his son "You are my Son, today I have become your Father".
  8. Jesus's God is our God too.
  9. He is the Firstborn from the Dead.
  10. Jesus has first place in everything.
  11. Jesus is head over the Church.
  12. He is God's firstborn.
  13. Jesus is the Beginning of the Creation of God.
  14. Jesus is begotten, not created.

So Jesus is the Image of God, the Son of God and the beginning of the creation of God. Now to be an image is a simple declaration that you are not the original and to be a Son is also a declaration that you have a source and the source of the Son is the Father. It is very easy to understand, but the Trinity doctrine tries very hard to confuse the minds of believers, so that they do not understand the truth that God is a person/identity and that this God has a son who is like him.

The Trinity doctrine would have us believe that the Father Son and Holy Spirit have always existed for all eternity together, when in actual fact it is God the Father who has existed for all eternity. Jesus came from the Father and all of creation came from Jesus including Man and just to take this one step further, woman came from the Man.
The Father is the one who is from everlasting to everlasting see the following scripture:

Revelation 1:4-6 (English-NIV)
4 John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,
5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,

Jesus is the Word of God. Another title that states he is of God or from God.

Revelation 19:11-13 (English-KJV)
11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True.
With justice he judges and makes war.
12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.
13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

Acts 3:15 (English-NIV)
You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.

Here we can see that Jesus is the Author of Life, yet it was God that raised him from the dead. So we cannot say as many do that Jesus is God because creation came from him. Rather we have to understand that God created all things though his Word, who is Christ.

The next scripture shows us that the Father is God and Jesus is his son. We read that Jesus himself learned obedience through suffering, just like us. We are then called to obey Jesus who is the high priest and our eternal salvation. But if Jesus were God, then how could he actually learn something. Isn't God suppose to be all knowing?

Hebrews 5:8-10 (English-NIV)
8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he suffered
9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him
10 and was designated by God to be high priest in the order of Melchizedek.

Continuing with the theme of God being all knowing, below you will see scriptures that show us that Jesus is not all knowing.

Matthew 24:36 (English-NIV)
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

John 5:30 (English-NIV)
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Mark 10:17-18 (English-NIV)
17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he
asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
18 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good, except God alone.

Here we can see that Jesus said that only God is good and he made it quite plain that he did not want to be called good.
Jesus also doesn't know the hour that he will return to earth and he also testified that he does nothing of himself only what he hears from God. These 3 scriptures show a different picture than the 3 persons in 1 God formula called the Trinity, that was devised by Man hundreds of years after the last book in the bible was written and is not mentioned in either the Old or New Testament. To truly honor Jesus Christ we must honor who he is. Remember that Jesus is the Truth. He is the Son of the Living God, the Messiah. So we must not only believe the truth with regards to who Jesus really is, but we must also recognize that he is the Truth.

If we say that Jesus is one of the equal persons that make up God, then we are not speaking the truth, rather we are following the doctrines of man and demon. Jesus taught us clearly that his Father is his God and that he is greater than himself. To truly honor the Father we must honor his Son. To honor Jesus is to believe the truth about him and believe his own words.
John 14:28 (English-NIV) confirms this .

"You heard me say, `I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 13:16 (English-NIV)
I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

John 6:29 (English NIV)
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

John 8:42 (English NIV)
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

Please do not pass over this without understanding it. It is important.

When Jesus came to earth he came for a reason.
He came to destroy the works of the Devil.
See the next 2 scriptures:

Hebrews 2:14 (English-NIV)
Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil

1 John 3:8 (English-NIV)
He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning.
The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

Jesus also came to show us God, to declare him and to bring us back into fellowship with God, this actually equates to destroying the work of the Devil. It is the Devils works that have alienated Man from God, it is Jesus works commissioned by the Father that brings Man back to God.

John 17:26 (English-NIV)
I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

John 14:8-9 (English-NIV)
8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the Father'?

Here we can see that Jesus was teaching the disciples about the Father.
Jesus was not saying he was the Father, he was declaring/revealing him. Jesus was also showing the disciples who he was, i.e. the Image of God. That is why he could say "If you have seen me you have seen the Father".
If we want to know what our Father, (the invisible eternal Spirit) looks like, then all we have to do is look at Jesus who is the image of the invisible God. He is the likeness of God in bodily form. He is the only begotten Son of God and remember that he is the only one who can see God and the only one who can declare him.

John 1:18 (English-KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

The next scriptures point out quite clearly that we must honor the Son if we are to honor our Father God.

John 5:23 (English-NIV)
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

John 12:44 (English-NIV)
Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me.

If Jesus is the Image of his Father, then it makes sense that whatever we say about Jesus we are also saying about his Father. If we slander Jesus then we are slandering God, not because Jesus is God, rather he is like God. If you slander the Son would that not be offensive to the Father. It is interesting to note that Jesus also said that whatever we say about the least of his brethren, we are saying it to him, this is because we (believers) are being made into the image of Christ. But this doesn't actually make us Christ, rather we are like him. God -> Christ -> Man/Church

Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

So just as the Deity is in Christ, Christ is in us. But some try to say that Jesus is the Deity, yet they know full well that we are not Christ. To be divine and to be the Divine is 2 different things. One identifies a nature/quality and the other identifies a person. God is the Divine and he shares his nature with his family, his sons. So Christ has divine nature as the Son should. But we can also partake of the divine nature and that doesn't make us God either.

2 Peter 1:4
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

The next 3 scriptures show us all good gifts come from the Father, this even includes Jesus himself and God's Spirit.
Jesus was begat from God and the Holy Spirit proceeds from God and we were given birth from God through the Word of Truth who is Jesus. This confirms that the head of man is Christ.

James 1:17-18 (English-NIV)
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of first fruits of all he created.

Romans 8:32 (English-NIV)
He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all, how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?

Luke 11:13 (English-NIV)
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

If Jesus is truly the Son of God, then do we believers worship him ?

Hebrews 1:6 (English-NIV)
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him.

This verse shows us that God wants his Angels to worship Jesus.

Matthew 2:2 (English-NIV)
and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

Matthew 2:8 (English-NIV)
He sent them to Bethlehem and said, "Go and make a careful search for the child.
As soon as you find him, report to me, so that I too may go and worship him."

But doesn't worshipping Jesus contradict many scriptures?

Exodus 34:14 (English-NIV)
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD , whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Luke 4:8 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'

Worshipping Jesus is scriptural and actually doesn't contradict the above scriptures. Why? Because we do not worship Jesus as God, rather the Son of God and the Lamb of God.

Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, "Truly you are the Son of God."

Revelation 5: 12-14 (English-NIV)
12 In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!"
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
14 The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.

The last verse above shows us that God and Jesus are worshipped in heaven. We worship Jesus as the Son of God and we worship the Father as God. All honor and worship to Jesus is really honor and worship to the Father anyway, because Jesus is the only way to God. Not all worship and praise is identified as being toward God alone. At times God's servants recieve praise such as King David, but such praise glorifies God. For if God's representitive recieves praise for doing the will fo God, then it is ultimately God that recieves that praise. We can even worship God by simply acknowledging the beauty of nature and the universe, as long as we acknowlege that God created then.

So Jesus shares the same honor that is due to the Father as he visibly represents his Father, the Invisible God.

John 5:23 (English-NIV)
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

John 14:6 (English-NIV)
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Those people who worship the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as 3 separate persons and each as God are really worshipping more than one God. Trinitarian believers will refute this and say that the 3 persons are one God, yet they worship any of the 3 that they want to at anytime. Let's just get real here and admit that such people worship 3 Gods. On one day it may be the Son, another the Father and another the Holy Spirit or all at the same time. But the scriptures are very clear with regards to worshipping the one true God. YHWH is the one true God.

So the scriptures are quite clear as to who Jesus is. He is the Son of God and the Messiah. We also know that by it's very definition, a Father is the originator and a Son has a source. Now some people believe that Jesus Christ did not exist before his birth on earth, even though they acknowledge that Jesus is the Logos/Word. They say that he didn't actually exist as a person till he was clothed in flesh and was born on this earth. Well I will let the scriptures speak for themselves.

John 6:8
For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

Now the scripture you have just read points out 2 things. First, that Jesus came from Heaven, so he must have existed before his birth as a man, and secondly that he has his own will and he chose to align his will with God's will.

The next scriptures also show us that Christ existed before he came to earth.

John 1:15
15 John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' "

We know from scripture that John the Baptist was 6 months older than Jesus Christ. So it is physically impossible for Christ to be before him. This verse shows a pre-existance.

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

This verse is either saying that glory, majesty, power... before all ages or it is saying the same thing but through Jesus Christ before all ages. Most translations favour the second option, but some do not mention the 'through Jesus Christ' part such as the King Kames version.

1Corinthians 10:1-4
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

So it appears that Christ accompanied Moses and the Jews when they left Egypt.

Colossians 1:15-17
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Hebrews 1:1-2
1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

So God created all things were created through Christ. Surely this suggests that he must have existed before all things in order for God to create all things through him.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

So Jesus had glory before the world began.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.

This verse mentions God as a person, except for the last word 'god' which is talking about the nature of God. i.e In the beginning was the Divinity and the Word was with the Divinity and the word was divine. The verse says that the Word existed with God as another person and he had the nature of that God. For more information about this, visit the following page:
http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/Trinity-5.htm#john1

Luke 10:18
He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

Compare Luke 10:18 with Revelation 12:1-10 and it appears that Satan and his angels fell to the earth before the birth of Christ as a man.

John 8:58
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

The last verse says I am, which means I exist or I existed.

Finally to conclude this part of the study, I want to point out a very interesting scripture from the Book of Proverbs. The verse is Proverbs 8:22-30 (English-NIV) and it talks about the concept of wisdom, then to wisdom himself:

22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, {[22] Or ; or } {[22] Or ; or } before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary so the waters would not overstep his command, and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,

So from this verse we can see the following points.

  1. This person was brought forth as the first of Gods works.
  2. This person was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.
  3. This person was given birth before creation.
  4. This person was the craftsman at his side and rejoiced in his presence before creation.

But some say that Wisdom isn't Christ, rather this is just wisdom in a conceptual sense and it is true that wisdom is being spoken of in that way as wisdom is referred to as a she. But from verse 22 onward it changes tempo. With terms like I was given birth, I was the craftsman at his side and I was filled with delight, we have to admit that it seems to be talking about a person.

Even today we refer to objects or concepts as 'she'. We call boats, cars, wars, etc., 'she'. E.g., "She was a bad war alright". "She can drive fast enough." "She was a powerful storm." But if I said "he can drive fast enough", then most would assume I was talking about a person and not the car.

But if wisdom in God was the first to be begotten (brought forth) then who was really first to be begotten? Was it wisdom or the son? Or are they one in the same? For God created all things with wisdom and would it be incorrect to call Jesus 'Wisdom'. If God created all things in truth, would it be incorrect to call Christ the 'Truth'. If God who is the originator of all life gave that life to his son, then could we not say that Jesus is the 'Life'. It appears that he is all those concepts or attributes of God, but personified. After all God created all creation through Christ and so would it not be befitting for Christ to be the personification of all those attributes of God.

Remember these two points:

  • That the fullness of God's nature dwells in Christ and Christ is a person. So if he reflects the fullness of God, then would it not be fair to say that Christ is all the attributes of God in person. He is God's image.
  • That Christ is between God and creation. He is the part or person where creation interfaces with God and God interfaces with creation. He is the only mediator for us. If God created all things through his wisdom, then he did it through Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:24 (English-NIV)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (English-NIV)
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

Let's look at some other concepts that Jesus personifies:

  • truth
  • life
  • light
  • peace
  • word
  • wisdom?

If we go back to Proverbs 8:22-30 and look at John 1:1, we see the following similarities.

John 1:1 (English-NIV)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Compare with "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works" and "I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began". Proverbs 8 22-23

Hebrews 1:5-6 (English-NIV)
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."
Compare with "When there were no oceans, I was given birth". Proverbs 8:24

Colossians 1:15-16 (English-NIV) 
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Compare with "Then I was the craftsman at his side. I was filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence,". Proverbs 8:30

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Angela
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bullet Posted: 21 April 2006 at 9:52am

Wow, Angel, I just have to say WoW!

I'm going to have to really read this on Sunday when I have hte time and respond to you. 

Is it okay if I also use my own beliefs?  Or do you not even want those in the equation?

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Angel
 
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bullet Posted: 21 April 2006 at 9:53am

If those who believe Jesus is God, then bring your support

even thou I don't follow Christianity I have never believed that Jesus is God. Jesus showed us the way by communicating God's words, taught the word of God (the word became flesh) and showed the way, God's way - God's nature/God's will/Holy Spirit. This doesn't violate monotheism. The belief in One God.

In the trinity this is what I believe would be the most closest and my own understanding:

Father - the word - thoughts/concepts/instruction, coming from God.

Son - Jesus - the word becomes flesh, Jesus acts out 'the word', speaks the words of God, and demostrates how to live the way of truth. Still coming from God but Jesus is "no way" God nor like God, he simple provided the instructions from God. Jesus being the intermidary. 

Holy Spirit - (according to religious theology there is 2 natures/wills - our self nature and God's) God's will or God's nature, which ever one you want to use, now Jesus instead of acting out his nature, he acted out God's nature. And since this nature is of God, it is I believe considered Divine / Divinity and anything coming from and/or pertaining from God is of Divine nature which is considered Holy. 

 

 

This, my view doesn't show Jesus to be God - our Creator.    

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Angel
 
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bullet Posted: 21 April 2006 at 9:59am
Originally posted by Angela

Wow, Angel, I just have to say WoW!

I'm going to have to really read this on Sunday when I have hte time and respond to you. 

 

Is it okay if I also use my own beliefs?  Or do you not even want those in the equation?

ummmm  

Yep of course you can  I did ask those who kept saying that Jesus is God to explain, show support for it

Since I just put my opinion / view of why Jesus is NOt God  

 

p.s: everyone: my quota of 10 percent copying is done   

oh and I won't be around for the weekend.



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~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Angela
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bullet Posted: 21 April 2006 at 10:06am

Well, there ya go, I would actually be arguing in support of you.  Since we don't believe Elohim and Jesus are the same.

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