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tawhid
 
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Quote tawhid Replybullet Posted: 11 April 2005 at 2:33pm

thank you all for raising objections to my posts....after reading them...you have put forth some challenging questions...but questions that can and will be answered with the grace and wisdom of my God - and questions that has/and will strengthen my faith as a christian.

however...due to the heavy matter at hand...it will take me at least an hour to truly study the brevity of your claims of gospel corruptions (which if they were...would deem god unable to keep his word - and therefore lacks all power) - however - the answers that i will give in due time...will not only rebuttle of bible corruptions but it will also question the holy quran as well as it already has...simple point - if there are no true enjeels - then god did not protect his word...and the muslim simply makes god out to be weak -

time is not on my side now...[however] this does not mean that these questions will not be answered....but in the time i do have...answer me this....

the bible has been corrupted...a muslim says "yes"....

i ask...when?

was it after the quran was formulated - AFTER your prophet said that the enjeels were from God?

or before?

by who? when? how can God's enjeels be corrupted if they were from God almighty? how can a simple human corrupt the divine word of God?

also...i challenge you...ANY MUSLIM...from badawi to deedat to the simple laymen....find absolutely any gospel...of any era...of absolutely any time in the history of creation...that jesus called himself something other than " I am" in your enjeel john 8:58 - and IN CONTEXT - from the greek translation, to king james, to new king james, to american standard, to NIV to absolutely EVERY SINGLE BIBLE KNOWN TO MAN....christ called himself " I AM" and it simply cant be refuted...

the burden now is not only on me...but on you to muslim.

in respect...but my faith in the Christ encouraged through this dialogue...

tawhid 

 



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semar
 
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Quote semar Replybullet Posted: 11 April 2005 at 4:50pm
Originally posted by tawhid


the bible has been corrupted...a muslim says "yes"....

i ask...when?

was it after the quran was formulated - AFTER your prophet said that the enjeels were from God?

or before?
serpents

by who? when? how can God's enjeels be corrupted if they were from God almighty? how can a simple human corrupt the divine word of God?

You have not answered AhmedJoiya's question yet.

Anyway I'll answer some of your simple questions. No written injeel is free corruption. All had been corrupted since the injeel was written. Because the authors were not genuine peoples who love and fear God, some even Prophet Jesus's enemy. Of course before the quran was formulated. The quran's content was not based from any books or any human writing but came from God directly.

There is no God's promise to maintain/protect the Injeel, because God had an intention to release the new version of injeel, that is Quran.



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Quote defenders Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2005 at 3:04am

Dear Tawhid. Let us back to the discussion about contradiction.

If you can't response my refutation on your copy and paste contradiction, that's mean you are fail at least one point about human creation. You have to admit that point 1. is not a contradiction.

After you response, I'll be ready for other claims inshaALLAH.

I'll wait.

Salaam

Defenders



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Shams Zaman
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Quote Shams Zaman Replybullet Posted: 13 April 2005 at 5:28am

 

The Quran is the book of Wisdom and anyone who has no wisdom and who can't think he can only get the instructions and guidence. But a man with knowledge and wisdom will be boggled with its depth and meaning. Secondly Arabic is a very rather most powerful terrestial language and no translation can match of its word which carry extremely vast and deep meanings. That is the reason that a French Doctor Dr. Mauries Bokyle once wrote the his famous and best selling book "The Quran Bible and Science" he first learned Arabic for almost 13 years and then claimed that Quran does not even contain a single verse which contradicts the modren science. He wrote this book as a christian and I don't know whether he is still a Christian or not.

“(It is) a Book We have revealed to you is full of blessing that they may ponder over its revelations, and that those endowed with wisdom may seek advice”.38:29

These are verses of the Book of Wisdom” 31:2

Swearing by the Quran full of wisdom  36:2

 

 1. What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?

 If I say tea is prepared of water. Then I say tea is prepared from milk and then I say that tea is prepared from the tea leaves which statement is wrong? Of course all are true.

“Man was created from nothing”. This is to refute the Darwin theory that man has evolved. No sir man was created from nowhere because there was no specie existing with the name of man. So once man was created for the first time he was created from nowhere.

The body of man was created from clay”. Dust is not right because clay is actually dust mixed with water. So Adam was the first creation from clay and then God spelled his soul in his body and he became human.

Man was created from blood is not correct”. The Arabic word is “ALAKA” “clot like substance resembling leech” and we don’t have appropriate word for Alaka so we use the word clot of blood which is nearest. You can refer to Prof Keithal Moore a Thai Prof of embryology who says “How could Muhammad seen this in the womb and its only in 1970,s that we exactly discovered the same.” He admits that only a divine revelation can say this. So once man is in mother’s womb he is created or developed from a zygote which resembles a leech which can be confirmed from medical books.

 

2.  Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?

There is no compulsion in religion. The sura which you have mentioned is 9 known as Tooba or Repentance. The first few verses were revealed once the non Muslim tribes had broken down the pact with Muslims of Medina. So it was a announcement of war for those who had broken the pact. Today this also holds good for all those who will not honour the pact and not for all non-Muslims. The exception can be seen in the same Sura in verse 6, “And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then escort him to a place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know”.  So these verses can not generally hold good for all non muslims but for only those who had broken a pact or have intentionally violated it. And anyone who is party to it and seeks for protection his treatment is given in the verse 6 of the same Sura. And nowhere Quran says convert someone forcibly.

 

 

3.  The first Muslim was Muhammad?  Abraham?  Jacob? Moses?

Every Prophet is supposed to be the first Muslim in his nation. Adam was first Muslim as a Human, Abraham was the first Muslim in his nation, Moses in his and Muhammad was in his nation that is the Arabs initially and the rest of the world later. Once the last priest believing in Oneness of God died in Syria died Muhammad was given the Prophet hood. Hazrat Salaman Farsi who came from Persia fed up with the idol and fir worship he kept on going from one priest to another until the last and forth one told him that after my death there is none who believe in one God and so you should go to Arabia where the Prophet is expected to appear. 

 

 4.  Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?    

Allah does not forgive the sin of associating partners with Him until and unless one seeks for forgiveness and mercy. You have to follow the complete incident of Moses coming back from the Sena mount.

See 2 : 54 (Sura Baqra) “And when Moses said to his people: O my people! you have surely been unjust to yourselves by taking the calf (for a god), therefore turn to your Creator (penitently), so kill your people, that is best for you with your Creator: so He turned to you (mercifully), for surely He is the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful So all those who were the perpetrators and who did not repent were killed. But those were forgiven who repented before Moses had returned to them. This event is also given in Old Testament Exodus Ch 32, verses 1 – 29 which says that almost 3000 were killed.

 

5. Are Allah's decrees changed or not?

Allah’s decrees never contradicts and no one can alter Allah’s commands except for Him alone. Like once we seeks for repentance or forgiveness Allah changes his decree from punishment to forgiveness. Secondly none of the decree given in Quran which was later altered contradicts. Like once Allah says don’t offer prayers once you are intoxicated, and later we are told that wine is forbidden and is Satanic. Does it contradict? The first order is still valid.

 

6.  Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning? 

 Indeed Pharoah was drowned with all his men narrated at numerous places in Quran. While his Mummy or body was made example and was discovered in the early 20th century. Probably in 1917 and still lies preserved in Egyptian museum in Cairo. It was recently shown on Discovery channel on 4th April 2005 in a documentary. Rather till 1900 the other religion people used to say this is the prophecy which is still unfulfilled in Quran

And now its not possible to find the Pharaoh who had drowned and eaten by fish etc. But the Prophecy came true and his body was found with a thick salt layer on it still lying preserved.

 

7.  Is wine consumption good or bad? 

  The wine is not only bad for humans but is also haram (forbidden). But it does contain a benefit. It gives you pleasure and a false sense of security and this is the reason that once a man in deep despair drinks it he forgets his miseries. So expect for these two benefits it has all the evil properties. So both were described in Quran.

 

Regarding the other Questions, I would ask you some simple questions:

1.      Once you say, the God i worship never reveals himself in one "pure" language...but has translated his word in ALL languages of everytonge...so all nations need NOT learn one language (arabic) in order to pray to him. Do want to say that infact God revealed Bible in all these different languages? Well if that is what you say you are an ignorant Christian who does not know in which language it was revealed. It was revealed in Hebrew and some say in Greek. Regarding its translations the Quran has been translated in same number of languages as of Bible. But unfortunately no where we find the original scripture of Bible and God knows what all non sense has been included in Bible which is even not appropriate to quote here. “Bast--d” This word or abuse occurs in the Bible THREE times DEUTERONOMY 23:2, ZECHARIAH 9:6 and HEBREWS 12:8.  Incest (s-x-al relationship between close relations like brother-sisters, father-daughter etc)  GENESIS 19:33-35 (Prophet Lot and his daughters). Can you believe that well if you do shame on you.  Jacob’s son (Reuben) with his step mother GENESIS 35:22. And between brother and sister SAMUEL-2, 13 : 5-14. What is this nonsense?

2.      And once you say that the god i worship does not tell us to pray in a certain direction (first towards jerusalem) and then change his mind to (Mecca).  So let me ask how do you pray? Do you think that there were no instructions for Jewes and Christians? If you could read the Three chapters of Old Testement you will come to know what it contains for you. Just read Exodus and Leviticus. And if these instructions were not meant to be followed why were they given to you then?    As to why the direction was changed because before the Children of Ismael or the Ismaelites the Jews were the Ummah or the divine nation. They like Jesus denied the Prophet hood of Muhammad but were given a time to accept Muhammad as their awaited Prophet or the Messiah. But they didn’t so the divine honor to worship in the direction of Jerusalem was taken away. Kabba denotes the unity of Muslim nation and that they all worship One and Only God, thus they face one direction to represent that there is only one centre and that is One God. Therefore you can’t face one direction as you consider 3 gods and confuse it One God. How can be there one centre for you?

3.      So once you say that, the god i worship does not put a tax on unbelievers such as Jazya. This is misconception that only non- Muslims are to pay. Muslims are supposed to pay Zakat and non Muslims the jazya. Don’t you pay tax in America, Britain or any other part of the world? We all pay tax and so is the system in Islamic society, what’s the big deal about it. And if you don’t want to pay Jazya go to some other country, like of if you don’t want to pay tax in America go to some other country. I hope you will land on moon while looking for such a place.

4.      Salat (prayers), Fasting etc are the rituals which were made must for every nation and society by God, whether be Jews, Christians or any other. So if you don’t perform them you are free to do that but you will be held answerable in the hereafter. However Hajj was mandatory for the last Muslim nation.

5.      Nowhere the Quran or Hadith tells us to seek guidance from Anjeel or Torah. It tells that these were the revelations from God and their people on whom they were sent altered it not accidentally but intentionally and for a very small benefit but ultimately will be rewarded in eternal hell. “Do you then hope that they would believe in you, and a party from among them indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this) o And when they meet those who believe they say: We believe, and when they are alone one with another they say: Do you talk to them of what Allah has disclosed to you that they may contend with you by this before your Lord? Do you not then understand? o Do they not know that Allah knows what they keep secret and what they make known? o And there are among them illiterates who know not the Book but only lies, and they do but conjecture o Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn o”(Sura Bakra-2, verse 75-79).       

Shams Zaman   Pakistan  

smszmn72@yahoo.com

 

 

smszmn72@yahoo.cm
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Quote defenders Replybullet Posted: 13 April 2005 at 7:39am
Originally posted by Shams Zaman

 

The Quran is the book of Wisdom and anyone who has no wisdom and who can't think he can only get the instructions and guidence. But a man with knowledge and wisdom will be boggled with its depth and meaning. Secondly Arabic is a very rather most powerful terrestial language and no translation can match of its word which carry extremely vast and deep meanings. That is the reason that a French Doctor Dr. Mauries Bokyle once wrote the his famous and best selling book "The Quran Bible and Science" he first learned Arabic for almost 13 years and then claimed that Quran does not even contain a single verse which contradicts the modren science. He wrote this book as a christian and I don't know whether he is still a Christian or not.

“(It is) a Book We have revealed to you is full of blessing that they may ponder over its revelations, and that those endowed with wisdom may seek advice”.38:29

These are verses of the Book of Wisdom” 31:2

Swearing by the Quran full of wisdom  36:2

 1. What was man created from, blood, clay, dust, or nothing?

 If I say tea is prepared of water. Then I say tea is prepared from milk and then I say that tea is prepared from the tea leaves which statement is wrong? Of course all are true.

“Man was created from nothing”. This is to refute the Darwin theory that man has evolved. No sir man was created from nowhere because there was no specie existing with the name of man. So once man was created for the first time he was created from nowhere.

The body of man was created from clay”. Dust is not right because clay is actually dust mixed with water. So Adam was the first creation from clay and then God spelled his soul in his body and he became human.

Man was created from blood is not correct”. The Arabic word is “ALAKA” “clot like substance resembling leech” and we don’t have appropriate word for Alaka so we use the word clot of blood which is nearest. You can refer to Prof Keithal Moore a Thai Prof of embryology who says “How could Muhammad seen this in the womb and its only in 1970,s that we exactly discovered the same.” He admits that only a divine revelation can say this. So once man is in mother’s womb he is created or developed from a zygote which resembles a leech which can be confirmed from medical books.

2.  Is there or is there not compulsion in religion according to the Qur'an?

There is no compulsion in religion. The sura which you have mentioned is 9 known as Tooba or Repentance. The first few verses were revealed once the non Muslim tribes had broken down the pact with Muslims of Medina. So it was a announcement of war for those who had broken the pact. Today this also holds good for all those who will not honour the pact and not for all non-Muslims. The exception can be seen in the same Sura in verse 6, “And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then escort him to a place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know”.  So these verses can not generally hold good for all non muslims but for only those who had broken a pact or have intentionally violated it. And anyone who is party to it and seeks for protection his treatment is given in the verse 6 of the same Sura. And nowhere Quran says convert someone forcibly.

3.  The first Muslim was Muhammad?  Abraham?  Jacob? Moses?

Every Prophet is supposed to be the first Muslim in his nation. Adam was first Muslim as a Human, Abraham was the first Muslim in his nation, Moses in his and Muhammad was in his nation that is the Arabs initially and the rest of the world later. Once the last priest believing in Oneness of God died in Syria died Muhammad was given the Prophet hood. Hazrat Salaman Farsi who came from Persia fed up with the idol and fir worship he kept on going from one priest to another until the last and forth one told him that after my death there is none who believe in one God and so you should go to Arabia where the Prophet is expected to appear. 

 4.  Does Allah forgive or not forgive those who worship false gods?    

Allah does not forgive the sin of associating partners with Him until and unless one seeks for forgiveness and mercy. You have to follow the complete incident of Moses coming back from the Sena mount.

See 2 : 54 (Sura Baqra) “And when Moses said to his people: O my people! you have surely been unjust to yourselves by taking the calf (for a god), therefore turn to your Creator (penitently), so kill your people, that is best for you with your Creator: so He turned to you (mercifully), for surely He is the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful So all those who were the perpetrators and who did not repent were killed. But those were forgiven who repented before Moses had returned to them. This event is also given in Old Testament Exodus Ch 32, verses 1 – 29 which says that almost 3000 were killed.

5. Are Allah's decrees changed or not?

Allah’s decrees never contradicts and no one can alter Allah’s commands except for Him alone. Like once we seeks for repentance or forgiveness Allah changes his decree from punishment to forgiveness. Secondly none of the decree given in Quran which was later altered contradicts. Like once Allah says don’t offer prayers once you are intoxicated, and later we are told that wine is forbidden and is Satanic. Does it contradict? The first order is still valid.

6.  Was Pharaoh killed or not killed by drowning? 

 Indeed Pharoah was drowned with all his men narrated at numerous places in Quran. While his Mummy or body was made example and was discovered in the early 20th century. Probably in 1917 and still lies preserved in Egyptian museum in Cairo. It was recently shown on Discovery channel on 4th April 2005 in a documentary. Rather till 1900 the other religion people used to say this is the prophecy which is still unfulfilled in Quran

And now its not possible to find the Pharaoh who had drowned and eaten by fish etc. But the Prophecy came true and his body was found with a thick salt layer on it still lying preserved.

7.  Is wine consumption good or bad? 

  The wine is not only bad for humans but is also haram (forbidden). But it does contain a benefit. It gives you pleasure and a false sense of security and this is the reason that once a man in deep despair drinks it he forgets his miseries. So expect for these two benefits it has all the evil properties. So both were described in Quran.

Regarding the other Questions, I would ask you some simple questions:

1.      Once you say, the God i worship never reveals himself in one "pure" language...but has translated his word in ALL languages of everytonge...so all nations need NOT learn one language (arabic) in order to pray to him. Do want to say that infact God revealed Bible in all these different languages? Well if that is what you say you are an ignorant Christian who does not know in which language it was revealed. It was revealed in Hebrew and some say in Greek. Regarding its translations the Quran has been translated in same number of languages as of Bible. But unfortunately no where we find the original scripture of Bible and God knows what all non sense has been included in Bible which is even not appropriate to quote here. “Bast--d” This word or abuse occurs in the Bible THREE times DEUTERONOMY 23:2, ZECHARIAH 9:6 and HEBREWS 12:8.  Incest (s-x-al relationship between close relations like brother-sisters, father-daughter etc)  GENESIS 19:33-35 (Prophet Lot and his daughters). Can you believe that well if you do shame on you.  Jacob’s son (Reuben) with his step mother GENESIS 35:22. And between brother and sister SAMUEL-2, 13 : 5-14. What is this nonsense?

2.      And once you say that the god i worship does not tell us to pray in a certain direction (first towards jerusalem) and then change his mind to (Mecca).  So let me ask how do you pray? Do you think that there were no instructions for Jewes and Christians? If you could read the Three chapters of Old Testement you will come to know what it contains for you. Just read Exodus and Leviticus. And if these instructions were not meant to be followed why were they given to you then?    As to why the direction was changed because before the Children of Ismael or the Ismaelites the Jews were the Ummah or the divine nation. They like Jesus denied the Prophet hood of Muhammad but were given a time to accept Muhammad as their awaited Prophet or the Messiah. But they didn’t so the divine honor to worship in the direction of Jerusalem was taken away. Kabba denotes the unity of Muslim nation and that they all worship One and Only God, thus they face one direction to represent that there is only one centre and that is One God. Therefore you can’t face one direction as you consider 3 gods and confuse it One God. How can be there one centre for you?

3.      So once you say that, the god i worship does not put a tax on unbelievers such as Jazya. This is misconception that only non- Muslims are to pay. Muslims are supposed to pay Zakat and non Muslims the jazya. Don’t you pay tax in America, Britain or any other part of the world? We all pay tax and so is the system in Islamic society, what’s the big deal about it. And if you don’t want to pay Jazya go to some other country, like of if you don’t want to pay tax in America go to some other country. I hope you will land on moon while looking for such a place.

4.      Salat (prayers), Fasting etc are the rituals which were made must for every nation and society by God, whether be Jews, Christians or any other. So if you don’t perform them you are free to do that but you will be held answerable in the hereafter. However Hajj was mandatory for the last Muslim nation.

5.      Nowhere the Quran or Hadith tells us to seek guidance from Anjeel or Torah. It tells that these were the revelations from God and their people on whom they were sent altered it not accidentally but intentionally and for a very small benefit but ultimately will be rewarded in eternal hell. “Do you then hope that they would believe in you, and a party from among them indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this) o And when they meet those who believe they say: We believe, and when they are alone one with another they say: Do you talk to them of what Allah has disclosed to you that they may contend with you by this before your Lord? Do you not then understand? o Do they not know that Allah knows what they keep secret and what they make known? o And there are among them illiterates who know not the Book but only lies, and they do but conjecture o Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn o”(Sura Bakra-2, verse 75-79).       

Shams Zaman   Pakistan  

smszmn72@yahoo.com

Assalammu'alaikum br Shams Zaman.

Good work.

Mostly, people who refer the qur'an contradiction will never comeback after Muslims fight back.

So far not even a single word coming from mr tawhid. Where is he?

wassalammu'alaikum

Defenders

 

http://www.islamdefenders.com/911/Index_911.htm --No Muslims involved in 9-11 attacks.
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