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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Is Islam true?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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AhmadJoyia
 
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bullet Posted: 22 February 2006 at 6:29pm

Thanks bro Melco for your kind response though incomplete and therefore unsatisfactory.

Originally posted by Melco

As I have been teaching Mark's Gospel for 2 years, I can say with certainity there are many references to Jesus' divinity, however, John above all gives it most emphasis.
Bro, that is why I posted from your own Biblical scholars and nothing is from my own side. Do you intend to confront them?
Originally posted by Melco


I was a little lazy and undefined in what I last wrote, because I lost the first two attempts before posting. We do make silly mistakes, exactitudes and truth aren't quite the same.
Niether it is for only believing through blind faith.
Originally posted by Melco

Public revelation ends with New Testament.
What ever suit you, my brother, though you yourself acknowledged that NT took almost 1000 years to canonize in the form that we now have. Despite this, I know several “Christian” denominations who do consider many apostles/saints still under the direct communication with divine Jesus, regulating their lives on day to day basis. Public or private communication is not an issue. The moment people claim to have a visionary visitation of Jesus to them, for whatever reason they may provide to inform, their claim doesn’t remain private anymore. Isn’t it?
Originally posted by Melco


My experience was a private revelation, and it had a private purpose. I did wonder if it was a trick by Satan. I asked many others if they could see it and they couldn't. I was attacked by the devil when I was a child and when it failed (my prayers protected me), another person near became possessed and proceded to say and do as you would expect in these circumstances. The following day (I was at a Summer camp), he asked me to help him and I exorcised him in Christ's name (very  reservededly). I  waited many years for God to send me some consolation to ease my pain, especially for what was said to me.  I feared God's judgement, but Jesus showed me the side of his suffering face to remind me that suffering is a sign of being close to God. 
It’s no more a private revelation. Simply because, now you are using it as a tool to impress/convince others, even if your nose skin get changed or not.

Originally posted by Melco

I meant to say in an earlier message, that God the Father (Lord) is unseen, but Christ is the image of the invisible God. I know that doesn't make sense. These aren't different Gods, but "roles" within God. ("roles" isn't quite right, but near enough)
O my dear brother, if you are not clear yourself, kindly give yourself a break. Think logically and rationally. You would also acknowledge this fact that “Trinity” is just a human explanation to numerous inconsistencies present in the NT just to make it appear as having some divine origin. Even the word “Trintiy” itself is alien to NT. Never used by any of the Gospel writers, whosoever they might be. So why would any logical thinker, a person like you, to get stuck with this confusing notion. Leave this notion away, and let us pray together to the same God, the God to whom Jesus also used to pray. Jesus bowed down in his prayers to the God and we should also bow down to pray like him. He came to guide us to the God and we Muslims do revere him same as we revere our Prophet Mohammad; nor more nor less. This is the best course of action that we must all look forward to adopt.



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AhmadJoyia
 
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bullet Posted: 22 February 2006 at 7:12pm

Originally posted by Tim

If faith requires no proof, why do all religious arguments and intellectual struggles require and insist on using materialist evidence to make a point?
 Intellectual evidence to physical phenomenon appeals to human reasoning, irrespective of the faith.  

Originally posted by Tim

Those who do not believe in material as primary and absolute, resort to it in order to exemplify or justify the existence of something they readily admit cannot be proved.
Who in the sanity considers material as absolute, not from science at least? No proof doesn’t imply non-existent. Materialistic proofs are required for historical events happened in human history and not for proving the existence of something. Faith is adopted through human logic and reasoning; reasoning rationally and not emotionally, through spiritual proofs and not through materialistic.

Originally posted by Tim

If an element which is not on the Periodic Table of Elements, it is not possible to demonstrate the existence as a new element that has not been discovered, by reference to those which have, is it? I'm open to persuasion.
 Yes, for an uninitiated one, Periodic Table is end of materialistic world, yet we know that it is simply a table of stable elements and not all the elements known to the scientists. There are many elements, not in the periodic table because they are unstable due to their short “half life”. But would that make them “non-existent”? Only few think that way.



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Servetus
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bullet Posted: 23 February 2006 at 9:38am

Welcome, Tim, and you are by no means an intrusion.

“If faith requires no proof, why do all religious arguments and religious intellectual struggles require and insist on using materialist evidence to make a point?”

I am not sure that I fully understand the question, but, to my view, the opening premise, that faith requires no proof, might be called into question.  Although the term is at this point somewhat ill-defined, faith, it seems to me, at least a type of it, does not invariably operate in the absence of proof.  Consider, e.g., that Judaism recalls the revelation of the Torah to Moses on Mt. Sinai, an event which it contends was in actuality witnessed by the children of Israel, and early Christians broadcast, at the risk of both life and limb, the resurrection of Jesus.   Islam, for its part, presents an apparently illiterate prophet as having received, or recited, what stands to this day as the definitive work of Arabic Literature.  In short, then, the faithful also inhabit the material world.

“Those who do not believe in material as primary and absolute, resort to it in order to exemplify or justify the existence of something they readily admit cannot be proved.” 

I enjoyed reading Ahmad’s response to this paragraph.   I might add that it is no doubt difficult for Judaism, at this point, and again as an example, to prove that Moses existed and that he received the Torah.  Does memory, myth, legend, etc., count for nothing?     

“If an 'element' which somone believes exists, is not on the Periodic Table of Elements, it is not possible to demonstrate the existence of that new 'element' if that 'element' has not been discovered, but only described by reference to those 'aliments' which have been discovered.  I'm open to persuasion.”  

I don’t know.  This I will say, and despite especially modernist objections to the contrary, I am rather of the opinion that there still exists a relationship between physics and metaphysics and between chemistry and alchemy.  I am not one to disparage the at times keen faculties of the ancients, my forefathers and yours (this is not to suggest that you are one to disparage them either), and I do, I hope, remain open to persuasion as well.

Servetus



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Melco
 
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bullet Posted: 23 February 2006 at 12:23pm
Ahmed, I am sorry if my words fail in relation to God, but God's inner nature is beyond the capacity of the human mind. I do not intend to challenge the biblical scholars, certainly having studied this more than me, they are closer to the truth. (By the way, the Old Testament, not the NT took about 1000 years to be put together.)

Ahmed, let me very clear, Christians believe that God is One. You think because we speak of trinity, that we believe of three gods, that isn't the case. We are very particular that these persons comprise one Being. Not everything is comprehensible: I  love  reading about physics, but it would be sillly of me to then assert that because I don't understand how quantum leaps happen, they can't happen.

Muhammad pedaled as a master trader/salesman would  a great story for the gulable,  but his idea of Judaism and Christianity is so far from the historic truth, that I find hard to believe that there are a billion people that believe it. (Obviously, I realise many are coerced to remain a muslim, eg in Egypt). The Qu'ran while it borrows from stories Muhammad heard, shows a distorted idea of these religions. 
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DavidC
 
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bullet Posted: 23 February 2006 at 12:38pm
In my experience, it is only AFTER one demonstrates faith that the grace
of God rewards them with the proof. This is generally referred to in
Christianity as sanctification.

If an 'element' which somone believes exists, is not on the Periodic
Table of Elements, it is not possible to demonstrate the existence of that
new 'element' if that 'element' has not been discovered, but only
described by reference to those 'aliments' which have been discovered.
I'm open to persuasion.


This is, in fact, how the rare earth elements were discovered. Their
existence and composition was induced based on a belief in the periodic
table as it existed in the fifties. Scientists then proceeded to discover and
create them in the real world.
David C.
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Melco
 
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bullet Posted: 23 February 2006 at 1:14pm
In the name of the Father, and of the Son and the Holy Spirit...
Private revelations are not required for salvation. Public revelation is intended to express everything about God and everything necessary for our salvation. You are latching onto words, but private here, means that it isn't necessary to believe in or know about private revelations in order to achieve salvation - they are nice to knows, not need to knows, though they may assist in giving an indication of God's Will for a particular time and place.

The notion of Trinity can be found obliquely even in the Old Testament, eg Genesis 1
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness

Genesis 18
 1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.  3 He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, [a] do not pass your servant by.

(Notice he speaks to the three and says "my lord")

In a sense the trinity is hidden from sight in the old testament.

In Mark's Gospel (yes, one of the Gospels you claimed erroneously had no reference to Christ's divinity) , you find a public acknowledgement by God of who he was.
Mark1, 10,As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."

(The Voice represents God the Father, Jesus is called the Son, the Spirit is the Holy Spirit)

Christ's Divinity in Mark's Gospel
Oh, how does Mark begin the Gospel?
1The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

And again
5When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."

 6Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7"Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"

 8Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, "Why are you thinking these things? 9Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up, take your mat and walk'? 10But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins . . . ." He said to the paralytic, 11"I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." 12He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, "We have never seen anything like this!"

One more example, Mark 14

Again the high priest asked him, "Are you the Christ,[f] the Son of the Blessed One?"

 62"I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

 63The high priest tore his clothes. "Why do we need any more witnesses?" he asked. 64"You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?"

The Blasphemy clearly was to claim to be God


What you have really is a far fetched claim by Islam, that Christ wasn't divine, but yet was a prophet. If God made him a prophet, then where is the true record of his prophesy if not in the gospels and letters of his followers? If they weren't a record, then God mustn't be able to tell the future (so isn't omniscient) or God is incompetent (so isn't omnipotent). But that is absurd, as God is All Powerful and All Knowing, therefore, if Jesus was a prophet, then the record in the Gospels must give his key teaching. (Why would God send Jesus as a prophet if no true record remained?).













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Angela
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bullet Posted: 23 February 2006 at 1:35pm
Oh, yeah, here's one Sister Christian who's going to stay out of the Trinity arguement.  Jesus Christ, the Son of God was not God, he couldn't sit at the right hand if he was one and the same....
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ak_m_f
 
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bullet Posted: 23 February 2006 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by Melco

As I have been teaching Mark's Gospel for 2 years.......


Now we really know why you are here, Good luck in converting people on the forum.
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