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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Is Islam true?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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AhmadJoyia
 
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bullet Posted: 31 March 2006 at 2:16pm

Originally posted by Fredifreeloader

ahmad - were you asking me to give references for the two instances of women executed for apostasy given in maududis book? - well for the first woman it simply says "bayhaqi" and for the second(the named woman) its says "bayhaqi and daraqutni"  its not a lot to go on, it seems to me

O my dear, what is this way of refering your work? On the more the work of Maulana that you quoted had its own references reflected in his work. Till the time, both sources of info are not cited completly, not just the name, but a particular page No. or any other specific number, it is really hard to look upon them. Do you think that someone has a time to look upon the whole work of a person, just because of your own laziness. That is not how scholarly work is presented. Kindly be specific in your references.

Now coming to your further references, suffice is say, that do you look at Christianity from apocryphal writtings or from your canonized versions of Bible? Even this canon is difficult to pass the test of "higher criticism", and yet you are providing such material in our discussion which itself needs to be evaluated. This is especially true when the matter is very clearly discussed in the Quran, there is little reason to take stance based upon sources other than Quran and Sunnah.

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artscholbe
 
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bullet Posted: 01 April 2006 at 5:10am

Ali Ibn Abi Talib was Muhammad's cousin, and also his son-in-law. He was the Fourth Caliph and is admired by Shi'ite and Sunni. Concerning him Ibn Hazm says, in the eighth volume of his book, "The Sweetener" on page 189:

"Ali brought apostates and burned them. When Ibn' Abas received the news he said, 'If it were me instead of (him), I would not have burned them but I would have killed them another way because the apostle of God said: "Whosoever relinquishes his faith, kill him."'"

Arthur Scholbe, Farmington, MO

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pauline35
 
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bullet Posted: 01 April 2006 at 6:10am
Well! Unfortunately, not all Islamic countries are governed by Islamic laws. Fortunately, the quran did not stipulate any laws to the killing of an apostate. It was a mere personal perception by individual.

Edited by pauline35
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fredifreeloader
 
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bullet Posted: 01 April 2006 at 11:19am
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Originally posted by Fredifreeloader

ahmad - were you asking me to give references for the two instances of women executed for apostasy given in maududis book? - well for the first woman it simply says "bayhaqi" and for the second(the named woman) its says "bayhaqi and daraqutni"  its not a lot to go on, it seems to me

O my dear, what is this way of refering your work? On the more the work of Maulana that you quoted had its own references reflected in his work. Till the time, both sources of info are not cited completly, not just the name, but a particular page No. or any other specific number, it is really hard to look upon them. Do you think that someone has a time to look upon the whole work of a person, just because of your own laziness. That is not how scholarly work is presented. Kindly be specific in your references.

Now coming to your further references, suffice is say, that do you look at Christianity from apocryphal writtings or from your canonized versions of Bible? Even this canon is difficult to pass the test of "higher criticism", and yet you are providing such material in our discussion which itself needs to be evaluated. This is especially true when the matter is very clearly discussed in the Quran, there is little reason to take stance based upon sources other than Quran and Sunnah.

but it is not my work, ahmad, it is the work of abul ala mawdudi.  i have given the references he has given for the two quotations in question.  if you cannot accept the honesty of the man, that is fine, but i do find it disturbing that you should dismiss his argumentation that the quran is not sufficient on its own to establish islamic law in a  country, or indeed throughout the world (as the ultimate objective is), without refutation

in the meantime, here are some hadithic references i have found myself on the subject of apostasy: sahih bukhari vol9, book83, no.17, 37.  also vol9, book84, no.57,58,64.  also vol9, book89, no.271. 

now you seem to be implying that that the "no compulsion" verse concerns apostasy.  do you have any evidence for this?  it seems to concern the thought of conversion, but even this is overturned by the message to the people of oman.  on this subject, may i inform you that the notorious michael jackson is now operating in the gulf region, having set up a foundation for the education of young people.  might i suggest that you petition michael to extend his ministrations to the people of oman, none of whom, you seem to be saying, understands enough english to be able to challenge this "misrepresentation" of their own prophets words? 



Edited by fredifreeloader
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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Andalus
 
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bullet Posted: 01 April 2006 at 7:43pm
Originally posted by artscholbe

Ali Ibn Abi Talib was Muhammad's cousin, and also his son-in-law. He was the Fourth Caliph and is admired by Shi'ite and Sunni. Concerning him Ibn Hazm says, in the eighth volume of his book, "The Sweetener" on page 189:

"Ali brought apostates and burned them. When Ibn' Abas received the news he said, 'If it were me instead of (him), I would not have burned them but I would have killed them another way because the apostle of God said: "Whosoever relinquishes his faith, kill him."'"

Arthur Scholbe, Farmington, MO

Burning is prohibted in Islam. I am aware of this narrative, and if the same one, it has been taken out of context. Furthermore, Ibn Hazm is considered contraversial and a narrative found in one of his works does not in and of itself make universal "law" in Islam. Apostacy in various forms is deemed to be punishable by death, but not all apostacy, and any ruling must be done by a Qadi in an Islamic state. We sould keep in mind that these polemics can be misleading. If I want to make a conclusion about the entirety of New York city based upon my study of a single block, I would not have an accurate conclusion and I would fool myself to think so.  

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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18Bash
 
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bullet Posted: 02 April 2006 at 10:50am

Since the begininng of the thread even though i joined lately, its obvious that MELCO or whosoever he calls himself is what i ll call an AGENT PROVOCATEUR. Despite the fact that we have had several Xtians contribute to this or other fora, i am yet to see anyone use such magnitude of abusive words towards our beloved Prophet and you can see that its deliberate.He once mentioned that if the Prophet (SAW) were to be alive he should be facing the War Crime Commission in HAgue and also that he should be facing a court for plagiarism like Dan Brown. Would you say these are the words of a sincere seeker of knowledge? But what he seems to forget is that Muslims are the most disciplined according to the principles of Quran  "... call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good exultation, and argue with them in the most honourable manner...". So however much he continues to attack the Prophet (SAW), NO sane Muslim will reply by attacking the person of Jesus in return. SO i am glad to say he has failed in this respect.

As to his casting doubts on the Prophet as regards the revelation of the Quran to him, i ll only refer him to Quran2:78   "Then woe unto those who wrote the Book with their own hands and then say 'this is from Allah' to purchase with for a miserable price. Woe unto them for what they have written and woe unto them for what they earn thereby"  What a testimony!.

MELCO keep stressing that Bible is more particular about " love" than the Quran, it is relevant to even ask what is the meaning of this "love" he has mouthed so often? All those quote about LOVE is tender love is this... blah are meaningless gibberish that has in no way exemplified the bible as a LOVING revelation form a LOVING god. ( sorry about the use of g here MELCO has never for once in his post use ALLAH but allah). " O my servant who have transgressed against their soul, do not despair of the mercy from your lord.. for he verily forgives of all sins and he is the FORGIVING and MERCIFUL" What greater love exist than this. May Allah continue to keep us on the right path.

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AhmadJoyia
 
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bullet Posted: 02 April 2006 at 11:53am

Originally posted by Fredifreeloader

but it is not my work, ahmad, it is the work of abul ala mawdudi.  i have given the references he has given for the two quotations in question.  if you cannot accept the honesty of the man, that is fine, but i do find it disturbing that you should dismiss his argumentation that the quran is not sufficient on its own to establish islamic law in a  country, or indeed throughout the world (as the ultimate objective is), without refutation

Dear bro its not the issue of "honesty" or otherwise, but the issue of validation of using authentic resources. Secondly you have not quoted the work of Maulana anywhere in your posts as well as many of his indicated references "[]" are glaringly missing due to your cut and paste procedures from his work. Now as far as your "disturbing" is concerned, kindly note the technical explanation as how Shariah law is formulated and how one of its component "Hudud" is extracted from Quranic punishments only. Here is the brief explanation of it by Denis J. Wiechman, Jerry D. Kendall, and Mohammad K. Azarian in their article  on Hadd Crimes titled as  "Islamic Law: Myth and Reality"

"Hadd crimes are those which are punishable by a pre-established punishment found in the Qur’an. These most serious of all crimes are found by an exact reference in the Qur’an to a specific act and a specific punishment for that act. There is no plea-bargaining or reducing the punishment for a Hadd crime. Hadd crimes have no minimum or maximum punishments attached to them. The punishment system is comparable to the determinate sentence imposed by some judges in the United States. If you commit a crime, you know what your punishment will be. There is no flexibility in the U.S. determinate model or in the punishment for Hadd crimes of Islamic Law." 

Here is another good article on the topic by Louay Safi at http://lsinsight.org/articles/Current/Apostasy.htm

Hopefully this shall remove all ambiguities concerning the issue of apostasy in Islam, addressing its controversial nature among Muslim shcolarship as well.



Edited by AhmadJoyia
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fredifreeloader
 
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bullet Posted: 03 April 2006 at 10:23am
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

Originally posted by Fredifreeloader

but it is not my work, ahmad, it is the work of abul ala mawdudi.  i have given the references he has given for the two quotations in question.  if you cannot accept the honesty of the man, that is fine, but i do find it disturbing that you should dismiss his argumentation that the quran is not sufficient on its own to establish islamic law in a  country, or indeed throughout the world (as the ultimate objective is), without refutation

Dear bro its not the issue of "honesty" or otherwise, but the issue of validation of using authentic resources. Secondly you have not quoted the work of Maulana anywhere in your posts as well as many of his indicated references "[]" are glaringly missing due to your cut and paste procedures from his work. Now as far as your "disturbing" is concerned, kindly note the technical explanation as how Shariah law is formulated and how one of its component "Hudud" is extracted from Quranic punishments only. Here is the brief explanation of it by Denis J. Wiechman, Jerry D. Kendall, and Mohammad K. Azarian in their article  on Hadd Crimes titled as  "Islamic Law: Myth and Reality"

"Hadd crimes are those which are punishable by a pre-established punishment found in the Qur’an. These most serious of all crimes are found by an exact reference in the Qur’an to a specific act and a specific punishment for that act. There is no plea-bargaining or reducing the punishment for a Hadd crime. Hadd crimes have no minimum or maximum punishments attached to them. The punishment system is comparable to the determinate sentence imposed by some judges in the United States. If you commit a crime, you know what your punishment will be. There is no flexibility in the U.S. determinate model or in the punishment for Hadd crimes of Islamic Law." 

Here is another good article on the topic by Louay Safi at http://lsinsight.org/articles/Current/Apostasy.htm

Hopefully this shall remove all ambiguities concerning the issue of apostasy in Islam, addressing its controversial nature among Muslim shcolarship as well.

ahmad - you seem to be implying that i am not using "authentic resources".  well, i am.  on page 39 of this thread i have referred to sahih bukhari, which is authentic.  that, i understand, is what the word "sahih" indicates (im sure youll correct me if im wrong here).  i actually used to think it was the guys first name, till someone told me otherwise.  as for my cut and paste procedures, let me point out that i was not able to do this at all before last week, when a good friend of mine told me how it was done (ive only had a computer for the past 6 months or so, courtesy of the royal mail "learning for all" scheme)  since then, ive been pasting right, left and centre

you are saying i think, by the quotation you give, that the punishment for hadd crimes must be found in the quran.  what can you bring to bear in support of this?  it also raises the question of which quran, bearing in mind that the penalty of adultery is stoning, which is not found in the quran of today.  but it used to be - see bukhari vol8 book82 nos. 816,817, also vol9 book92 no.424, also muslim book17 no.4194.  this evidence comes from people who knew a quran you do not know. 

the article you referred me to, by louay safi, is full of confusion.  he refers to only 2 hadith in bukhari which specify the death penalty for apostasy, well even i have given more than that.  the quranic verses he gives mostly refer to conversion, not to apostasy.  he does not take any account of the fact of abrogation in his references, or is that something else you dont believe in?   the story he quotes about abdullah bin sad comes from ibn hishams "sirah" - is this more authentic than bukhari? - even if true, it does not mean the penalty for apostasy is not death.  his contention that the quran is even against the death penalty with regard to apostasy (quoting 4: 137) is utterly meaningless.  he states - "obviously a death penalty would not permit repeated conversion from and to islam" - indeed it wouldnt.  but a death penalty after a 3-day period of grace for reflection and repentance, as clearly specified in the shariah law, would

some words in the article leapt out of the screen at me.  they were "islamic reformers" and "muslim reformers". is this how yourself and the louay safis of this world view yourselves?



Edited by fredifreeloader
for i am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth - romans 1: 16
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