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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Is Islam true?(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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AhmadJoyia
 
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bullet Posted: 20 February 2006 at 1:24pm

Originally posted by Melco

Perhaps, we stop calling each other ignorant, none of us here know the full truth.

Now this is a realistic view that I must appreciate.

Originally posted by Melco

…..what I mean by "contradiction" and "development" .
There is such a thing as an organic development, which I consider Islam not to be, but a mishmash and in many instances a regression.
Though, I leave the answer of this part of your comments to bro servetus, but suffice is to mention that such comparisons are only valid at a bigger level of doctrinal teachings. Point being made that pure monotheistic concept of God, as depicted in the OT, but contrasted in the NT, is what can be called as continuation of message through Islam. All other comparative changes, though even those can be discussed, are merely developmental changes varying concomitantly with changes in the societies and developments of cultures with time and space.

Originally posted by Melco

AhmadJoyia, biblical scholars agree that the written texts followed and were secondary to the oral transmission of witnesses, who together with the apostles were witnesses to various parts of Jesus' story. Mark's Gospel was written in about 70ad, because many of the witnesses were being executed or growing old.
So, is there any authenticity in oral transmissions? I mean were these not be considered as folk lure myths/stories, people still used to narrate in some part of the world? Where is the evidence? Simple statements like “Multitude of people heard……..” can’t be considered a reliable evidence. Isn’t it? Secondly, since when “Mark” and “Luke” are considered to be among the 12 Apostles? Not appointed by Jesus himself, at least that I can tell. Thirdly, if anonymous person’s accounts, such as Mark (without true ID of Last name), came into written form about half a century later, what level of authenticity can be attributed to other accounts, which all came later than Mark, and heavily depended on his account?

Originally posted by Melco

There are many clues in the texts, which show that  these witnesses were drawn from, eg in Mark's Gospel it says that Simon of Cyrene was the father of Rufus, etc. (This was added as a reference to where the story came from and was included as these were known to the Christian community).
How could books of anonymous authorship provide any authentication for their legitimacy? I don’t know.

Originally posted by Melco

One of St. Paul letters to the Corinthians dates from 50ad and already establishes that the Christian community was already taking shape without there being any written Gospels at that stage.
Yap! St. Paul’s accounts could be seen as authentic, but the fact is, he himself wasn’t there when everything happened around Jesus. He didn’t even meet Jesus in his life on earth. But yet we see him being the champion of defining faith.

Originally posted by Melco

There obviously had too be many witnesses to supply this early community with Jesus' sayings and miracle stories.
Kindly provide their names. Without this, no authentication can be established. Is there any publication that can be considered authentically reliable without the author’s credentials?  

Originally posted by Melco

Yes, there are 4 gospel accounts, each with different communities they are writing for and different goals.
Kindly associate these communities with the 4 gospels that you wish to consider. I shall appreciate it as I really don’t know of them.

 

Originally posted by Melco

My eyes are wide open, my friend, I have seen the Lord and he has called me 3 times, I am not groping entirely in the dark for answers.  Peace be with you!
But, my brother, the OT as well as Jesus in NT said that no one has seen the “Lord”. How is it that you come to contradict them? I think, I don’t have any other way to analyze your statement other than as what you say, though you may claim anything having seen it.



Edited by AhmadJoyia
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liberty
 
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bullet Posted: 20 February 2006 at 3:14pm

Christians believe their religion to be correct, Muslims believe their religion to be the true religion, etc.  blah, blah, blah

A persons religion is based upon faith, not in historical facts, rational discussions, etc.  When a person finds something they are looking for in a particular religion they then give their faith to it.

Do you think that little boys and girls in the United States being raised as Christians are going to be anything other than Christians?  OK, maybe a few will not.  Indoctrination is not 100% effective.

Some will begin to think for themselves and question what was taught them as fact!

Same holds true for all little boys and girls regardless of the faith they are being indoctrinated in.

I am raising my children to think and decide for themselves.  If they grow up and decide to become Muslim, Buddhist, etc and are happy, then they have made the right decision for themselves!

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Melco
 
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bullet Posted: 20 February 2006 at 3:46pm
AhmadJoyia, I hope I answer your questions. The truth is more important than anything else. Folklore and myth need longer periods of time than we have with the Gospel, a couple of decades doesn't count as sufficient time. Go around telling a story at that time, especially of miracles and you would need witnesses to back you up. The fact is that Christianity spread at a remarkable rate across the middle east, if these things didn't happen it would only need one person from any of the towns to dispute them for the whole misadventure to fall down. The Acts of the Apostles record that in those 2 decades after the events of Christ, the apostles performed miracles, healings, etc. Paul was converted having had seen Christ on his way to persecute Christians. The authors of the Gospels didn't have to be the Apostles for them to be authentic. St. Paul was there dealing with the aftermath of the beginning of Christianity. Like you he didn't believe in the bizarre claims of the Christians. He put many of them to death by stoning. He was fervent in his stance against them. Yet, he was converted and later died a martyr, having witnessed many miracles. Peter was killed too. So, was James in approx 45Ad.

I have a 10 page document of letters to and from Emperors and others, historical records of these events.

Here are two examples:

Quadratus, to Emperor Hadrian about 125 AD:

"The deeds of our Saviour were always before you, for they were true miracles; those that were healed, those that were raised from the dead, who were seen, not only when healed and when raised, but were always present. They remained living a long time, not only whilst our Lord was on earth, but likewise when He had left the earth. So that some of them have also lived to our own times."

From the following, you can ascertain that at one time, there existed an official census recording Jesus' existence.

Justin Martyr, to Emperor Antoninus Pius about 150 AD:

After referring to Jesus's birth of a virgin in the town of Bethlehem, and that His physical line of descent came through the tribe of Judah and the family of Jesse, Justin wrote, "Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, in which Jesus Christ was born, as you can ascertain also from the registers of the taxing made under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judea."


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bullet Posted: 20 February 2006 at 3:58pm
I still reckon that the point such as the following is quite decisive alone in disputing Islam's veracity...
5) Many of the Qu'ran's lines look like paraphrases of the Bible's verses, which is immediately suspicious. The Qu'ran is an amalgamation of Judaic, Christian and Arabic Polytheistic and cultural ideas, therefore, it doesn't appear to spring from a pure source, a Divine Mind, ie God. There are too many references to theological disputes of the day to convince me otherwise than it all came from the mind of Muhammad, however poetic the words might have been. 

Edited by Melco
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Servetus
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bullet Posted: 20 February 2006 at 4:05pm

Welcome, Liberty:

"Christians believe their religion to be correct, Muslims believe their religion to be the true religion, etc.  blah, blah, blah.  A persons religion is based upon faith, not in historical facts, rational discussions, etc."

Sorry.  Are you meaning to suggest that St. Augustine, for example, employed neither facts nor rationality in his works?  What about Hans Küng?  Finally, if rationality has nothing to do with it, why would the Prophet Isaiah (1:18) write:

"Come now, let us reason together ..."

Serv   



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bullet Posted: 20 February 2006 at 6:00pm

Originally posted by Melco


10) Why is there is still little prosperity in Muslim countries?

That is not a religious fault. 

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Shams Zaman
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bullet Posted: 21 February 2006 at 5:59am

Dear Malco! Peace be on you. Here are the replies to your post:

1) The "Prophet" contradicts many of the teachings of earlier prophets, eg the teaching of monogamy. A genuine prophet, because he speaks on behalf of God can develop but not contradict an earlier prophet's words. Why? Because God cannot change his mind or He is imperfect and not omniscient (all knowing). We remember, that Muhammad claimed that God changed his mind on which direction to pray to three times (Kabaa, Jerusalem, then the Kabaa again). Strange that.

Reply:   It is your ignorance to say that earlier Prophets preached monogamy:

The Qur’an is the only religious book, on the face of this earth, that contains the phrase ‘marry only one’. There is no other religious book that instructs men to have only one wife. In none of the other religious scriptures, whether it be the Vedas, the Geeta, the Talmud or the Bible, does one find a restriction on the number of wives.

According to these scriptures one can marry as many as one wish. It was only later, that the Hindu priests and the Christian Church restricted the number of wives to one. In earlier times, Christian men were permitted as many wives as they wished, since the Bible puts no restriction on the number of wives. It was only a few centuries ago that the Church restricted the number of wives to one.

Polygamy is permitted in Judaism. According to Talmudic law, Abraham had three wives, and Solomon had hundreds of wives, Solomon had over 900 wives etc. The practice of polygamy continued till Rabbi Gershom ben Yehudah (960 C.E to 1030 C.E) issued an edict against it. The Jewish Sephardic communities living in Muslim countries continued the practice till as late as 1950, until an Act of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel extended the ban on marrying more than one wife.

Quran is the only religious book on the face of the earth that says ‘marry only one’. The context of this phrase is the following verse from 4:3: "Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one."

Before the Qur’an was revealed, there was no upper limit for polygamy and many men had scores of wives, some even hundreds. Islam put an upper limit of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women, only on the condition that he deals justly with them. In the same chapter it is said: "Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women...." [Al-Qur’an 4:129] Therefore polygamy is not a rule but an option.

By nature males and females are born in approximately the same ratio. A female child has more immunity than a male child. A female child can fight the germs and diseases better than the male child. For this reason, during the pediatric age itself there are more deaths among males as compared to the females. During wars, there are more men killed as compared to women. More men die due to accidents and diseases than women. The average life span of females is more than that of males, and at any given time one finds more widows in the world than widowers.

In the USA, women outnumber men by 7.8 million. New York alone has one million more females as compared to the number of males, and of the male population of New York one-third are gays i.e sodomites. The U.S.A as a whole has more than twenty-five million gays. This means that these people do not wish to marry women. Great Britain has four million more females as compared to males. Germany has five million more females as compared to males. Russia has nine million more females than males. God alone knows how many million more females there are in the whole world as compared to males.

Suppose my sister happens to be one of the unmarried women living in USA, or suppose your sister happens to be one of the unmarried women in USA. The only two options remaining for her are that she either marries a man who already has a wife or becomes public property. There is no other option. All those who are modest will opt for the first.

Allah’s decrees never contradict and no one can alter Allah’s commands except for Him alone, neither He change His mind but it is our limitation to which he eases His commandments.

Like once we seek for repentance or forgiveness Allah changes his decree from punishment to forgiveness. Secondly none of the decree given in Quran which was later altered contradicts. Like once Allah says don’t offer prayers once you are intoxicated, and later we are told that wine is forbidden and is Satanic. Does it contradict? The first order is still valid.

If you could read the three chapters of Old Testament you will come to know what it contains for Jews and Christians. Read Exodus and Leviticus and tell me that if these instructions were not meant to be followed why were they given to you people?   

So why the direction or KAABA was changed? Because, before (the Children of Ismael) or the Ismaelites the Jews were regarded as the Ummah or the divine nation. They denied the Prophet Hood of Muhammad (like of Jesus) but were given a time to accept Muhammad as their awaited Prophet or the Messiah. But they didn’t.

So the divine honour to worship in the direction of Jerusalem was taken away as a sign that the Jews no more holds the position of “Chosen People of God” and Mecca was declared as the new direction of worship. Kabba just denotes the unity of Muslim nation-hood and that they all worship one and only God, thus they face one direction to represent that there is only one centre and that is One God. But Christians can’t face one direction as you consider 3 gods and confuse it One God. How can be there one centre for you? Let it be clear that no Muslim worship the Kabba itself, they just pray in the direction.

2) It seems to focus on a God who is "all merciful", but it's followers are often unmerciful, eg Muhammad led a massacre in retaliation. Surely, Jesus teaching of turning the other cheek is more advanced, therefore, Muhammad is making a regressive change to an earlier prophet's teachings.

Reply:   When this massacre took place and where?? The conquer of Mecca is probably the only example in the world history where not even a single individual lost his life. The Jesus saying is taken out of context, he never said that revenge should not be taken rather he meant to say it is better to forgive at certain times. If you think that is in reality what he meant, then what about the rapist who rape one sister and kill her, would you offer the second one to do the same?? Moreover what would you say about this: "If any man come to me, and HATE NOT his father, and mother, and wife, and children. . . HE CANNOT be my disciple." LUKE 14:26.

3) I don't buy the line that Jesus' true teaching was lost and the Gospel is in error. The Gospel was cross-checked by hundreds of witnesses, while the Qu'ran is dependent entirely on the religious experience of one man.

 

Reply:   There are some over 5000 contradictions in Bible but the space doesn’t permit me to quote these all. Here are some major, for an ignorant like you:

(a) "No man hath seen God at any time John 1: 18 (b) " (God) whom no man hath seen, nor can see .,."I TIMOTHY 6:16 (c) "And he (God) said, Thou canst see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. EXODUS 33:20

Contradicted by: (a) "And the Lord spoke unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend Exodus 33:11 (b) 'And they (Moses, Aaron and seventy others) saw the God of Israel . ." EXODUS 24:10 (c) "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved GENESIS 32:30

And as a special favour God shows his back parts to Moses "And I (God) will take away my hand and thou shalt see my back parts . . . " EXODUS 33:23

Other contradictions: (a) The "Lord" tempted David . . . 2 SAMUEL 24:1 or "Satan provoked David . . . I CHRONICLES 21:1.   (b) 700 or 7000? "Horsemen" or "Footmen" . . . ? 2 Samuel 10:18 vs 1 CHRONICLES 19: 18.    (c) Solomon had 2000 baths or 3000 baths? 1 KINGS 7-26 vs 2 CHRONICLES 4:5.    (d) Solomon had 4000 stalls of horses or 40000? 2 CHRONICLES 9:25 vs 1 KINGS 4:26.    (e) Did Saul enquire of the Lord or didn't he? 1 SAMUELS 28:6 vs 1 CHRONICLES 10:13-14 (f) Heaven, no man hath ascended JOHN 3:13 Contradicted by. 2 KINGS 2:11 Elijah ascended, and GENESIS 5:24 Enoch ascended.    (g) Jesus lost "None" of his disciples JOHN 18:9 Contradicted by. He lost only "One" JOHN 17:12    (h) ALL are sinners 2 CHRONICLES 6:36 Contradicted by: "Whosoever is born of God DOTH NOT commit sin.." 1 John 3:9.

Please approach these witnesses and religious scholars to eradicate these some of the contradictions so that I could let you know about the others. While Quran is guardian for itself: 15:9 Surely We have revealed this message and We will most  surely be its guardian (against any alterations).

 

Strangely these experiences of the man even admonishes himself, gives instructions to himself and not a single word has been altered since last 1500 years. So I think you should try to read these experiences and compare these with other religious books you would find the answer.

29:48. And you did not recite before it any book, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand, for then could those who say untrue things have doubted.

 

69:44. And if he (Muhammad) had fabricated against Us some of the sayings, 45. We would certainly have seized him by the right hand, 46. Then We would certainly have cut off his aorta. 47. And not one of you could have withheld Us from him. 48. And most surely it is a reminder for those who guard (against evil). 49. And most surely We know that some of you are rejecters. 50. And most surely it is a great grief to the unbelievers. 51. And most surely it is the true certainty 52. Therefore-glorify the name of your Lord, the Greatest.

4:82. Do they not then ponder on the Quran? that if it would have from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many contradictions.

12:105. And how many signs in the heavens and the earth which they pass by, yet they turn away from these.

 

4) I have had many (what I consider) genuine religious experiences, which confirmed for me the truth of the Catholic faith. These contradict Muhammad's claims.
Reply: No experiences mentioned?? Without reading Bible you are just following what you saw your elders were.


5) Many of the Qu'ran's lines look like paraphrases of the Bible's verses, which is immediately suspicious. The Qu'ran is an amalgamation of Judaic, Christian and Arabic Polytheistic and cultural ideas, therefore, it doesn't appear to spring from a pure source, a Divine Mind, ie God. There are too many references to theological disputes of the day to convince me otherwise than it all came from the mind of Muhammad, however poetic the words might have been. 

 

Reply: This is a clear indication that all these scriptures were revealed by the same divine source means ALLAH. The old scriptures were altered but Quran maintains the originality. This is exactly what Islam says. Remember Prophet Muhammad was born as an illiterate and received no education but the word of God. Please analyse all the scriptures without the in born prejudices of a Catholic.

2:41. And believe in what I have revealed to you (Quran), verifying that which is with you (Torah and Injeel), and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me alone should you fear.

35:31. And that which We have revealed to you of the Book, that is the truth verifying that which was before it (Torah and Injeel); most surely with respect to His servants Allah is Aware, Seeing.


6) Islam don't seem to be open to honest critique in search of the truth for fear of being less than obedient, but in order for a religion to be rational, this must be allowed. Religious beliefs can't be self-contradictory.

 

Reply: This is a sweeping statement, please be specific. There is no verse which forbids the healthy critique or analysis rather it encourages that.

 

 

7) Moses forbade making idols or gods out of people, but Muhammad is being treated like this, as he is the only one, apart from God that one cannot make an image of. Last time I looked, Muslims had photos on their passports, this a complete contradiction.

Reply: This is the proof that you know nothing about Islamic beliefs:

18:110. Say: (Oh Muhammad) I am only a mortal like you; I only receive revelations that your god is only One God, therefore whoever hopes to meet his Lord, he should do good deeds, and not join any one in the service of his Lord.

 

3:144. And Muhammad is no more but an apostle; like him the apostles have already passed away; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels! he will by no means do any harm to Allah in the least and Allah will only reward those who are thankful.

 

8) There is no uniform belief system or singular authority in Islam. If it came from one God, there should be.

Reply:  Wrong! Quran and Prophet is the authority. The religious scholars have a standing and position but they can’t go against Quran and Prophet. Moreover everyone is free to hold his opinion against the religious scholars based on logic and reason. There is no concept of Theocracy in Islam as the Church had ruled the Christendom for centuries.



9) Why isn't Love promoted more highly in Islam? Why does justice or anger always get greater emphasis?


Reply:   Wrong on this occasion too. Don’t just believe and read the selected portions of Quran published by the western propagators:

 

5:2. O you who believe! do not violate the signs appointed by Allah nor the sacred month, nor (interfere with) the offerings, nor the sacrificial animals with garlands, nor those going to the sacred house seeking the grace and pleasure of their Lord; and when you are free from the obligations of the pilgrimage, then hunt, and let not hatred of a people-- because they hindered you from the Sacred Mosque incite you to exceed the limits, and help one another in goodness and piety, and do not help one another in sin and aggression; and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; surely

Allah is severe in requiting (evil).

 

42:40. And the recompense of evil is punishment like it, but whoever forgives and amends, he shall have his reward from Allah; surely He does not love the unjust.

42:43. And whoever is patient and forgiving, then these are surely actions of great courage.

 

29:46. And do not dispute with the followers of the Book (Jews/Christians) except by what is best/kind, except of those who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit.


10) Why is there is still little prosperity in Muslim countries?

 

Because we are not following our religion and following the west blindly. Our rulers (imposed by West) have no interest in religion our socio-economic problems and are just busy in amassing the wealth for themselves. Corruption, illiteracy etc is not bothering them anymore.

Pray we get rid of them.

 

Shams Zaman  Pakistan    smszmn@hotmail.com

 

smszmn72@yahoo.cm
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pauline35
 
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bullet Posted: 21 February 2006 at 6:07am
Servetus said, "How's this for a punchy opener on my part? Now, with this salvo, I'm back to discussing that other strange thing: politics!

Welcome, again, and I hope that your time here proves rewarding."

That's a good one.

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