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Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
Message Icon Topic: Research on disinformation re: Qur’an Post Reply Post New Topic
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fredifreeloader
 
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Quote fredifreeloader Replybullet Posted: 26 February 2006 at 1:36am
pauline - kindly point out one thing ive said which was based on what the media wrote.  kindly substantiate your slander against wikipedia.  kindly provide proof that your friends got their change in religion officially recognised by the government in the same way that lina joy tried
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Khadija1021
 
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Quote Khadija1021 Replybullet Posted: 26 February 2006 at 3:01pm

Fredifreeloader,

 

 

Even if your point about Malaysia is true, how does that make Islam a violent religion?  Have you ever considered that is might simply be the Malaysian way of applying Islam that is the problem and not Islam itself?  In order to prove your point, you need to show us that ALL countries that claim to be Islamic have these same laws.  The truth of the matter is that there exist no true Muslim counties at this time in history.  All countries that claim Islam as their predominate faith only implement Sharia as part of their law system and the Sharia they implement is far from being the true Sharia of Islam.  So, it is truly an injustice you do by claiming their flaws and faults on Islam.

 

 

Although the issue which exists in Malaysia regarding the blocking of believers (Muslims) from converting to another faith, 1.) there is nothing in the Qur’an or Sunnah which states a person is forced to be a believer or to remain a believer, there is no compulsion in Islam, hence, this appears to be a law of the Malaysian government and not a law of Islam, and 2.) there are some Christian denominations which believe that once you enter their faith you are a member of that faith unless they excommunicate you; that is, even if you leave their faith, they believe you are still part of that faith and they judge you according to that faith.  I have a friend who has been a Muslim for 20 years but she is still on the registry of the LDS and I am still on the registry of the Catholic Church.  The difference appears to be that in the former case (Malaysia) is enforced by a government body whereas the latter is not.  Is this the fault of Islam?  I think not and for you to assume or to say so is simply ignorance on your part.

 

 

You have made comments about Islam’s population as being mainly composed of Muslims born into Muslim families but this is far from true.  If it were the case, then the majority of Muslim would be Arabic; however, Islam is currently composed of no more than 20% Arabs.  There are an estimated 1.5 billion Muslims in the world today.  This means that although there are approximately 300 million Arab Muslims, there are 1 billion 200 million Muslims who are not of the Arabic ethnic group.  So, how can you expect others to believe what you said about Muslims being born Muslim to be true?  The truth of the matter is that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.  Despite (actually, more like as a result of) the 9/11 bombing in the US, Islam is becoming a faith which many devout Christians are converting to.  The reason for this is due to larger numbers of American who became sincerely interested in learning about Islam as a result of the bombings and propoganda by the media there after; hence, instead of listening to speculations and propaganda, they purchased copies of the Holy Qur’an so they could see for themselves what the truth about Islam is.  If you would like to see a testimonial to this fact, please watch the video “Turning Muslim in Texas.”  Just click the link below and it will take you there:

 

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9184353144432289069 &q=Turning+Muslim+in+Texas

 

 

Also, in one of your earlier posts you accused Pauline of being racist for asking if a person was Jewish.  Judaism is not a race.  This is a fallacy that is as old as Christianity.  Just as Judaism does not constitute a race, neither does Islam or Christianity.  The closest you could have gotten to calling Judaism other than a religion would have been to call it an ethnic group because even if all Jews were of the same bloodline, that bloodline would be no other than Caucasian.  However, even trying to refer to Judaism as an ethnic group doesn’t hold today because not all current day Jews are a part of the same bloodline or culture as the Israelites which Moses lead out of Egypt.  It simply goes to show us that it is simply a fallacy to equate any religion with a particular race or ethnic group even if the religion is contained with a particular ethnic group or race.  So, stop calling people racist for wanting to know if a person is Jewish or of any other religious group.  This is an Islamic forum and therefore knowing the religious background of those who make comments about Islam is relevant to the discussion.  Just as some Christians have in the past been persecuted by Jews (not all but some), so have some Muslims.  It is no secret that there are some (probably many) Jews who do not want to see the prophecies of the Torah fulfilled.  And just as the Jews denied the validity Christianity, so do the Jews and Christians deny the validity of Islam.  On the other hand, Muslims do not deny the validity of either Judaism of Christianity.  Muslims merely hold that the Torah and Gospel have been tampered with by men.  However, Muslims still consider both Jews and Christians as being followers of Divine Revelation and worshipers of the same God; i.e., Allah, even if they believe that Christians have gone astray in believing in the trinity; that is, becoming polythesists and not mere monothesist as Allah commands us to be. 

 

 

The bottom line is this; Allah will reveal the truth in the end because He is AL-HAQQ (The Truth, The Real).  That is, the TRUTH does not depend on the life or the opinion of any human being regardless of whether that human is Jewish, Christian or Muslim.  The TRUTH is independent of all things; the TRUTH is ALLAH, AL-HAQQ. 

   

ASHUKRU-LILLAHI RABBIL-ALAMEEN WALA-HAWLA WALA QUWATA ILLA BILLAH

 

Sister Khadija

Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
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fredifreeloader
 
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Quote fredifreeloader Replybullet Posted: 26 February 2006 at 4:57pm

khadija - well you should read "the punishment of the apostate according to islamic law" by abul ala mauwdudi, also the following hadith:

bukhari vol9 no.37 - "......by allah, allahs messenger never killed anyone except..........a man who fought against allah and his messenger, and deserted islam and became an apostate..."

bukhari vol9 no.57 - ".......i would have killed him according to the statement of allahs messenger 'whoever changed his religion, then kill him'."

bukhari vol9 no.58 - "....muadh asked, 'who is this man?'  abu musa said 'he was a jew who became a muslim then reverted back to judaism'  then abu musa requested muadh to sit down but muadh said 'i will not sit down till he has been killed.  this is the judgment of allah and his messenger' and repeated it thrice.  then abu musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed.  abu musa added 'then we discussed the night prayers...'"

bukhari vol9 no.64 - "narrated ali...............no doubt i heard allahs messenger saying 'during the last days there will appear some young foolish people who will say the best words, but their faith will not go beyond their throats and will go out from their religion as an arrow goes out of the game.  so wherever you find them, kill them, for whoever kills them shall have reward on the day of judgment'"

also bukhari vol9 no. 271, which tells the same story as no.58

yes ive already seen this video you posted.  i wonder if those folks in texas are having the same problems as these people in the uk - see here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1470584,00.html

now if im out of order in any way by referring to paulines comments as "racist" then fair enough, but remember she said it was a jew who "started the story about islam being a violent religion" and that the present day (unspecified) problems in malaysia, which she referred to as the "chapter of destruction", are being caused by jews in the country.  now if its not racism what do you call it?  ethnicism? judeophobia?  i dont know.  anyway pauline seems nice enough, and ive no wish to offend her, i just find these statements strange



Edited by fredifreeloader
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DavidC
 
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 26 February 2006 at 6:16pm
Freddi, there's 600 years difference between Christianity and Islam. 600
years ago the Spanish Inquisition was torturing and killing on a much
grander scale - all biblically based. 400 years ago Christian pastors taught
the story of Ham, Shem and Japeth as God's justification for slavery.

Selectively picking out parts of hadith which support your point is arguing in
bad faith. Muhummad was a man of his time, and was bound by the mores
of Quyrash society. If you would spend a little time learning about Islam's
high points you might discover why 100% of mainstream Christian
denominations respect Islam as one of the world's great religions.
David C.
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fredifreeloader
 
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Quote fredifreeloader Replybullet Posted: 27 February 2006 at 1:53am
david - the Lord Jesus Christ never advocated fighting, killing, torturing or enslavement of anyone, nor did any of the apostles.  muhammad did.
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 27 February 2006 at 3:41am
What you are missing, Freddie, is that the Quraysh were a violent, tribal &
pagan society. Muhummad introduced them to the God of Abraham, and
established a military code of conduct that was forgiving, just and ethical.
He brought Arabia from anarchy to a united, organized, God-fearing
country.

No, Muhammad was not a pacifist - but he was the inventor of the
military ethos we call chivalry.

I suggest you read Martin Lings' Muhammad : His Life Based on the
Earliest Sources
. Read about Muhummad's defeat at Badr, and then
the rules of engagement he required of the Muslims at the subsequent
battle of Uhud. You will clearly see the presence of God within
Muhummad's command.

Comparing Muhummad to Jesus is unfair. Nobody worships Muhummad.
Compare Muhummad to St. Joan if you wish. Or Joshua. Or Joab.

As for the apostles, of course we have Judas as the first to believe we
must use violence to implement God's will. Constantine was our first
military commander, and the early Christians commonly executed those
deemed heretics. St. Augustine later developed his concept of a 'just war"
- an oxymoron if you believe Jesus. Christian violence continues to this
day; even Jimmy Carter drove a submarine carrying nuclear missiles.

Muhummad's generalship is too important to gloss over as "violence".
Study his tactics and rules of engagement to get a sense of his ethical
standards, then consider how little actual fighting took place over the
centuries as Islam took over the Middle East.

Could a mere general, much less a religious poseur, conquer and hold
this much territory? I think not - Islam could simply not have grown and
flourished as it has without God's help.

I'm not Muslim, but I can tell you the worldwide spread of Islam is a
miracle and a blessing. People have implemented it imperfectly, but that
is in every religion. Look for what is right with Islam instead of the
problems and you will find it strengthens your Christianity. We Christians
really have many more commonalities with Islam than we have
differences.
David C.
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fredifreeloader
 
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Quote fredifreeloader Replybullet Posted: 27 February 2006 at 9:01am

david its rather disturbing to see you dismiss textual evidence out of hand.  if the texts i quoted have been "selectively picked out", then its because they are there to be picked out. you will also note that they do not concern war, or rules of warfare.  they concern the murder of those who convert from islam

judas was never an apostle.  he did not receive the commandment to "go into all the world and preach the gospel", nor was he present on the day of pentecost to be baptised in the holy ghost.  he was a thief, a traitor, and never a believer.  he always addressed the Lord Jesus as "rabbi", never as "Lord"

again, examples of violence from christians past or present is not appropriate.  we are not defending the misguided actions of christians real or fake, we are defending christianity.  and no, jimmy carter operating a nuclear submarine is not an example of "christian violence".  it is an example of united states defence or united states warmongering if you prefer.  jimmy carter may be a christian, but it was presumably as president of the us that they allowed him to think that he was actually in control of a nuclear submarine.

there is no justification in the new testament, no commandment to fight.  indeed theres a prohibition on all that.  whereas the quran says that fighting "is prescribed" for muslims.-quran 2: 216  fighting is violence.  so is killing. 

you say muhammad was a man of his time.  but muslims ive spoken to claim he is a man for all time, and that his edicts are eternal and cannot be changed - except the ones he changed himself, under the guise of abrogation, such as "let there be no compulsion in religion"



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DavidC
 
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 27 February 2006 at 11:22am
Freddi, there are always some Muslims here who post biblical
discontinuities, all the incest & murdering etc. Their error is the same as
yours. They are take a biased selection - one researched by someone
else, as they are too lazy to read the originals on their own - and use it to
put forward a concept that is removed from context and is intellectually
dishonest.

Do you really want to be that kind of person? Do you truly think you are
witnessing to the truth in Christ when you repeat unbalanced arguments
of others without listening? Bukhari is readily available for free - why not
read it for yourself and make your own opinions?

I'm not going to get into all your errors regarding Christianity, as this is
not a Christian forum. It is a forum to learn about Islam, one in which we
Christians are graciously invited to participate. It is an opportunity to
make friends and learn about Islam from real people. It demeans
everyone when you reduce it to a series of juvenile arguments derived
from the work of others who feel they can only justify their religion by
demeaning others.

You are new here, and will soon see just how obnoxious it is when the
anti-Christian crowd start with the canned "Bible is corrupt, violent and
sex-crazed" nonsense. A juvenile debating of scripture taken without
understanding is a mean and base enterprise.

I hope you can put yourself above that, remembering Paul's advice to
never shake other's faith in God.
David C.
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