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Wrangel
 
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Quote Wrangel Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2006 at 4:43pm

Following Danish, Swedish and Norwegian media on the burning of the embassies.

First of all, I would like to stress. I can't recall any deliberate attack on a Scandinavian embassy ever happening before.

The Danish goverment is much more upset then I expected that they would be. Seems this was much more than a spontanious demonstration where police and local authorities did not react quickly enough. The Danish embassy reported the demonstration to local police 4 times, requesting aid. They did not receive any.  

In Sweden the reporting is a bit more surpriced. This embassy was not directly attacked this may be reasonable.

The Norweigian newspapers I have checked are more direct. They view this as an attack sanctioned by the Syrian goverment. This is what the paper says. I don't know what the Norwegian goverment says.

Since Syria is a heavily controlled Police state, a demonstration like this can not take place without authorities being involved they say.

To me this sounds very likely, and the Danish goverment very strong reactions may indicate that they also think this. They have not said this, nor has Danish media.

If this is the case. Then the issue of the drawings are drifting somewhere in the background. What we are seeing now is different groups attempts to draw political benefit from the drawings. This has (to some extent) been the case from the start. If this happens the escalation of the conflict is automated. And it will take a lot of effort to slow this down.

Danish Muslims that don't feel represented by iman's has formed their own organization today.

It is expected there are 200.000 Muslims in Denmark. It has been estimated that around 10% are part of Muslim organizations represented by the imans.

Please note that Danish Muslims comes from all over the world.



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Wrangel
 
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Quote Wrangel Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2006 at 4:59pm

I have in vain tried to find Scandinavian newspapers that prove information in English.

Here are links to Scandinavian papers. Looking at the pictures thay present may give you an idea of their reporting. As far as I know they don't publish the pictures, so you should be safe from insults. But since newspaper contents changes often I cannot give you any guarantees.

First the paper who started all of this. Right now they have an "open letter to all muslims" in Arabic (I think). The paper has received bomb threats for the past several days now.

http://www.jp.dk/

Jyllandsposten is one of the 3 major morning newspapers in Denmark. Here are links to the other 2.

http://politiken.dk/VisArtikel.iasp?PageID=1

http://www.berlingske.dk/

Three Swedish morning newspapers:

http://www.dagensnyheter.se/

http://www.gp.se/gp/jsp/Crosslink.jsp?d=10

http://sydsvenskan.se/

One Norweigian morning paper:

http://www.dagbladet.no/

I am not so familiar with Norwegian media. The reason I post morning papers is that, here they are the more serious newspapers. The eveing papers are more tabloids.

 

 



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MOCKBA
 
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Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2006 at 7:28pm

Bismillah

When innocent victims die, when bombs tear off governent buildings only then people begin to think of the seriousness of insulting the faithful believers...

The approach in "civilised" countries has conditioned public to ignore words, to ignore pleas, to ignore call to stop aggression and invasion but to take action only when someone gets hurt...  

Through media, those in despair have also been conditioned to answer with violence...

Little did the cartoonist realise that the bomb he was drawing was going to blow in real...

And yet again Muslims are to be blamed... What a wonderful world!

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Quote Maryga Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2006 at 10:03pm

Wrangel, your defence of the "freedom of speech" baffles me.

 "Freedom of Speech" exists in most democracies, but it is always qualified by the fact that this freedom should exist within the boundaries of a civilised society. Where the freedom infringes upon the rights or freedoms of other people and when the freedom is used to incite violence through racism, should the Danish government not curtail and re-enact legislation to put limits upon it? Have you not heard of the debates on "The pen is mightier than the sword"?

You seemed to be appalled by freedom of action, but you think one can have a free reign with the freedom of speech, which is only a percursor to freedom of action. Unless the former is curtailed the latter cannot. The Danish PM should realise that his country has some foolish laws and should come forward and apologise and also request all those responsible to give an unqualified apology.

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Quote Wrangel Replybullet Posted: 05 February 2006 at 2:02am

Hi Maraya,

I completely agree with what you say on freedom on speech. If you go back and re-read what I have written, you will find that I agree that changing Danish legislation i required. Freedom of speech exist is all democracies. You can't have one without the other.

Edit add. The freedom of action, I had not heard before. I am (slowly) starting to understand why it was brought up. I think understand, but I don't agree that freedom of speech has got anything to do with freedom of action. As a matter of fact, they seem completely contrary to me.

If out and break somebody's nose, you then need to suffer the consequence of your action. This must be what was ment. Please correct m,e if I'm wrong. But with (at least) absolut freedom of action, there would be no consequence.

Freedom of action is the strongs right to do whatever he pleases. A society with freedom of action only needs this single rule. This is facist, you are right, I am appaled by this.

When there is freedom of speech the strong has given up, his right to control what the weak may want to say.

If out and break somebody's nose, you then need to suffer the consequence of your action. This must be what was ment.

Mockba, as usual I understand very little of what you say. I wish you would stop using "civilized" when you describe me and people like me.

It was ok once or twice. Now I start to find it insulting. Also please post something you think I can understand, otherwise don't post at all.



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Maryga
 
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Quote Maryga Replybullet Posted: 05 February 2006 at 3:20am

Freedom of action is the strongs right to do whatever he pleases. A society with freedom of action only needs this single rule. This is facist, you are right, I am appaled by this.

When there is freedom of speech the strong has given up, his right to control what the weak may want to say.

Wrangel, I'm sorry I disagree with you here. To me freedom of expression without boundaries is totally wrong. Freedom of expression can manifest in different forms. To the literate it may be via speech or through writings or drawings. It is the intention that matters. Expression via the cartoons were meant to hurt and incite violence. The press has achieved its intention of hurting and creating racial enmity. The less literate's expression of freedom is via action. Both are wrong. But the former must be condemned more so because the education was used as means to create anger, hate and violence.

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Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 05 February 2006 at 5:11am

Bismillah

Originally posted by Wrangel

Mockba, as usual I understand very little of what you say. I wish you would stop using "civilized" when you describe me and people like me.

It was ok once or twice. Now I start to find it insulting. Also please post something you think I can understand, otherwise don't post at all.

Wrangle, your ability to understand is evident from the very subject that you've initiated. Danish newspaper insulted Muslims and is yet to apologise. Instead many more newspapers in many other countries joined in solidarity of an insult and re-printed the pictures. It is clearly an insult, but the question is: to apologise or to continue "you are with us or you are with the terrorists" approach. And it is not surprising that the latter prevails.

The Danish Prime Minister thought it right to educate Muslims on freedom of speech. Perhaps because they are all uncivilised as you rightly noticed.

I used the word "civilised" twice or three times (not to describe you, though) and you are already feeling insulted... now how would you feel if I made a disgusting insulting cartoon of you, your mother, your father, your sisters and brothers and published it for your entire nation to mock at... calling your entire brethren TERRORISTS in print and electronic media... on an hourly basis? Are you then going to advocate "freedom of speech" refusing to make any statement yourself?  The Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) status in Islam us such that he is/should be dearer to Muslims than their closest family members.

You may not understand this too, but this is about the simplest way I can comment on your posts in general.



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Quote Wrangel Replybullet Posted: 05 February 2006 at 5:41am

Hi Maraga, I am not sure what you mean we disagree on. I have never advocated freedom of speech without boundaries. On the contrary, I insist there must be limitations. And there are, also according to Danish law. But the law is not strong enough.

Thank you Mockba for posting something I can understand. Please forget the stuff on the "civilized". If it was not directed to me I don't mind.

"The Danish Prime Minister thought it right to educate Muslims on freedom of speech." I don't he educated Muslims on freedom speech. He was/is trying to explain his lack of power due to Danish legislation.

Today I have sent an email to all political parties in Denmark with the following text:

------------------------------------------------------------ ----

In the view of the escalating conflict, it is becoming clear to me that more must be done. And more can done.

It must be possible to strengthen Danish media legislation, so that it becomes illegal for a newspaper to insult religious (and possibly other) groups. And at the same time have a free press. I see no conflict with this.

I therefore ask the xxxx party to immediately start work on a review of Danish media legislation, and publically announce that this is being done.

Too me it is obvious that is required. Otherwise can any Danish newspaper, start problems like this at any time. This is not resonable.

------------------------------------------------------------ ----- 

Below are web links or email addresses to the Danish political parties. I published web links to the ones that have information in English. You should have no problems finding their email address here, if you wish to communicate with them.

List is in no particular order.

Social Democrats.
http://socialdemokraterne.dk/default.aspx?site=english&

The Danish extreme left.
http://www.enhedslisten.dk/multi.asp?emne=english&side=d efault

Danish liberal party, part of the goverment. The prime minister respresent this party.
http://www.venstre.dk/index.php?id=276

Conservative party. Also part of goverment. Foreign minister represent this party.

pressetjeneste@konservative.dk

Danish peoples party. The most right-wing party in parliment. A nationalistic party.
df@ft.dk

Small humanistic party in the center of the political scale. That is not a good description but the best I can come up with.
radikale@radikale.dk

Socialistic peoples party. To the left of the Social Democrats.
sf@sf.dk

 



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