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Tim Evans
 
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Quote Tim Evans Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2006 at 10:09am

The old tune is predictably being played-out, again.

"Standard diplomatic practice will kick in now. The Danish government will protest to the Syrian government, the Syrian government will tighten security on the embassy and that should be the end of that." (Wrangel)

The provocation is made. The provocation is responded to and rumor feeds on rumor. And then everyone starts "condemning" the response.

It's like poking a caged animal with stick through the bars of a cage. The stick is not the main problem. The fact that the poor creature is already driven mad by being caged is the problem.

The latest outburst of fury on the 'Arab street' is not just because some ignorant wag used a sharp pencil to insult Islam, it is a response to the generations of none stop repression and that won't go away because "Standard diplomatic practice will kick in..."      

  



Edited by Tim Evans
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Quote Wrangel Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2006 at 10:17am

Hi Angela, I have carefully read the petition. It's bottom line says:

"We still expect that your kind government will react positively to this insult by banning this cartoon and asking the newspaper to publish an apology to all Muslims."

I assume this means the petition formally asks the Danish goverment to formally request to the newspaper to publish an apology to all Muslims.

The Danish goverment is not allowed to interfere with the press in any way, that is not regulated by Danish law. This means the goverment or other authorities (police and others) can and must interfere if a newspaper breaks Danish law. Otherwise not.

The way the petition is formulated it might as well ask the Danish goverment to bring down the moon. Even though the request is fully reasonable and deserve support. The Danish goverment cannot do this. Since the Danish goverment actions are dictated by Danish law. It is impossible due to Danish law. And Danes have earned their freedom  and democrocy fighting their authorities during several centuries, will not allow this.

Asking the impossible from somebody cannot resolve this issue. It will only result in dissapointment, since the requested was not delivered. So the petition only makes matters worse.

The Danish goverment can however take initiative to change Danish laws. It can send proposals to the Danish parliment. Since the Danish goverment is formed based on the majority of the Danish parliment, it is also  highly likely that the Danish goverment proposals will be agreed by parliment.

If the petition request the Danish goverment to change Danish law so further unfortunate events like this can be prevented. I would happily sign it. As a matter of fact, I think the sooner they start doing this, the better. The Danish goverment deserves critisism for not having started this yet.

I cannot sign a petition that requests the Danish goverment to break Danish law. First the law must be changed. What law and how it should be changed is a political issue.

The Danish goverment has put forward all excuses within its power. The newspaper has also published excuses. I know that several Muslim organizations on Denmark has accepted these excuses.

Saw Tim's post. I think we all here understand that the issue is not just the Danish paper's drawings. I would however prefer that this thread only dealt with this. What I meant was that common diplomatic practise will deal with this particular event.



Edited by Wrangel
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Quote Wrangel Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2006 at 11:23am

Tim ,

I don't know what you are talking about when you say:

"It's like poking a caged animal with stick through the bars of a cage. The stick is not the main problem. The fact that the poor creature is already driven mad by being caged is the problem."

It is very frustrating for me to be here, when I can't decode the posts. I find it rude and intimidating (spelling?) when so many make posts, suddenly , out of the blue, quoting something that sounds like senseless gibberish. It's not just your post, its others as well. I would very much like to understand what you are saying.

And when I ask for an explanation I never get one.

If we are here to try to clarify cultural differences, then its every posters responsability to make sure that everybody understand what he is saying.

 



Edited by Wrangel
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Shams Zaman
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Quote Shams Zaman Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2006 at 11:39am

Dear Wrangel!

First of all in the west use of the freedom of speech is not meant for abusive purpose. If I abuse someone's mother should that be covered under the so called FREEDOM OF SPEECH? or if I break someone's nose would it be covered under the freedom of action slogon.

For heaven's sake what is wrong with the people of the west. Someone personally may forgive any abuse to his parents but certiainly not to the Prophet Muhammad or Allah. This is a much gravest sin than that.

Regarding, to why all Danes should suffer for this individual act of a newspaper???  

Dear Danes where were you once the MILLIONS of Iraqis were being punished for the sins of alone SADDAM HUSSAIN? None of you raised such concerns at that moment. MOREOVER< why are you punishing all the Muslims for the actions of few who have taken up the guns or bombs?? by restricting their admissions to westren universties, restricting visas and banning head scarfs etc???

I can see the concern in your voice but were you also concerned once the poor Iraqis were suffering at the hands of the WEST for the man who was brought up by the WEST?? Or once innocent Muslims are arrested and harassed in westren countries for the offences of a few??

Oh, you surely was never so concerned, and why should you be??? Your blood and life is far sacred than of Muslims!!

Have you ever published or would ever dare to publish the cartoon of Baruch Goldstein and Yossef Bodansky (Jewish Rabbi and spritual guide of Goldstein) posed as the Nazi?? (Baruch Goldstein killed upto 50 worshippers in a mosque in Hebaron without any provocation).

If publishing such defaming, outrageous and disrespectful cartoons is freedom of speech then burining of Danish embessy and killing of its citizens shouldn't also be taken as "THE FREEDOM OF ACTION"?? 

Don't think that you have broken an Islamic principle. Does abusing someone's mother a Danish or Islamic problem?? It obviously is a universal infringement. Similarly, Prophet Muhammed is also dear to every Muslim more than his mother, father or children! You make cartoons of your popes, or our Mullahs, your kings or our rulers, your mothers or your fathers we don't care but don't abuse our Prophets, our mothers and our fathers. 

Why not Mr. Osama bin Laden should also be governed under the same so called Freedom of Speech?? Why should he be permitted to speak freely under the same rule then?? Why should Muslims clerics are be watched and harrased by the European governments from delivering Jehadi sermons?? Why they are not given the same freedom of speech?? Why are there double standards???

Why France has put the ban on scarf and why they can't put the ban on the cartoon?? Don't they think puting a head scraf is my or somebody elses freedom of action???

Are you trying to make other fools by this slogon once you hold different values for different people?? 

So why you expect that once you break all the norms of decency, manners, respect you should be greeted with flowers and hugs? Why is so? Have you ever thought of it??

What have you people done to tell that newspaper that don't hurt the feeling of others? I am sure you people must have done nothing but to laugh on the Muslim protests!! So it you are collectively feeling the pain what's the big deal about it??? And why should you be concerned, you people don't know how to give respect and earn respect. You don't have even regard for any religion, personality or even God. Its disgusting and shameful.

And dear Mr. David C!

You are right why Muslims are quite on bombings in Iraqi mosques. This is indeed disgusting but let me tell you that alongwith the Muslims, Israel, United States and Britin are also to be equally blamed. You would certainly try to brush away this with the old slogon of "COSPIRACIES THEORIES" but dear sir before saying this do read the following reports:

As June 30th approaches Israel looks to the Kurds by SEYMOUR M. HERSH Issue of 28-06-2004

The Muslim world After 9/11  published by RAND Corporation in 2004.

These are not the reports published by some Muslim Fundamentalist or a conspiary story teller these are some of the most well known policy institution and national magzine (which happens to be American Jewish). What the hell hundreds of Israeli military officials and MOSSAD people are doing in Kurdistan??  Cooking breakfast for the Iraqis or preparing the videos for the world portarying Muslims as terrorists?? or Funding the so called "Muslim Imams" to motivate the brain washed Iraqis to bomb the Shia Holy places??

The RAND corporation is telling that facilitating an internal war with in Islam should be the prime objective of US national foreign policy?? What does this mean?? To kill shia and put the blame on Sunnis and kill sunnis and put the blame on Shia!  

That is what is happening in Iraq. Trying to fulfill the Bible propheciy of 3 divisions in the land of Eupharities. 

The first few such attacks were certainly of the similar nature and later may be the plan worked and resulted in a chain reaction. So cheer up boys you peple are doing fine!!!

Shams Zaman    Pakistan 

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Quote ak_m_f Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2006 at 11:58am
Wrangel whats your age ?
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Quote Wrangel Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2006 at 1:16pm

Dear Shams Zaman, thank you for this wonderful post. It clearly requires several days of consideration. There are a few things I can address immedialely.

As for Iraq, I have no immediate comments. Denmark has got ~500 trops in Iraq. The purpose of these trops is to help the Iraq people. If they serve their purpose I don't now. I hope so. I see no reason to mix Iraq events with Danish drawings events. I don't want to include Iraq in this thread or discussion. With Iraq we can endlessly talk about who did what to whom.

I would frankly expect that we have more people in Danish Universities than ever before. I see no reason why this should not be the case. US might have enforced some restrictions, but I never heard about any in Denmark. I don't have any statistics though. 

"Have you ever published or would ever dare to publish the cartoon of Baruch Goldstein and Yossef Bodansky"

I know of the event. Not the persons involved. I see no problem with condeming these or making drawings of these. As nazis or whatever. 

"If publishing such defaming, outrageous and disrespectful cartoons is freedom of speech then burining of Danish embessy and killing of its citizens shouldn't also be taken as "THE FREEDOM OF ACTION"??"

This freedom of action puzzles me. Criminal law regulates freedom of action. You can't go around killing or hurting people. Freedom of speech is the right to say anything you want. Media is regulated by a different ruleset. Freedom of action is something I have not heard about before. Sounds like a lawless society to me. Your point with this is slowly coming across but requires time to think through.

I see no reason to discuss bin laden or 911 here in any context.

Muslims clerics are free to say whatever they want in Denmark. And they do. Surely you must have noticed. They might be criticised and condemned when people think they have gotten to far. Freedom of speech is a principle. As such is belongs to everybody. Also to them. You have no reason to think we don't think it does not belong to them. At the same time I would very much like to know what they are saying. As I posted before, some of them are actively working on making the Muslim community more angry. Spreading rumours, fake drawings and such. Some of them act in their perceived self-interest.  

One thing to note is that Muslim society in Denmark is built of Muslims from all over the world.

"Why France has put the ban on scarf and why they can't put the ban on the cartoon??"

You have to ask the French. In France its not just the scarf, its relogious symbols on pupils at school. In Denmark we don't have this rule. It has been discussed, but in our tradition we don't tend to make religious based laws. If it can be avoided we don't.

But the scarf has been an issue couple of times in Denmark. Muslim people working at a company with customer contact may require employed Muslims not to carry scarf. I am not sure if companies in Denmark are allowed to fire muslim women who wants to wear a scarfe at work. Can possibly be so, I don't see scarfs on people at work very frequently.

The scarf and controversy around the scarf must be understod in the context of women rights movements. And that the scarf is viewed as oppressive in general terms. This since the scarf (burka, what have you) is mandotary in certain parts of the world. Women wear this, not because they want to in all cases, but since they have to.

My favourite past-time in the summer in Denmark is to go on a bicycle trip. I frequently pass beaches. Here I see Muslim families. I can see the Muslim boys running around having fun and kicking a ball. And I can see Muslim girls fully dressed sitting down doing nothing. Looks very strange to me. I am sure the girls wants to play too. That's what kids do. The girls are not allowed I guess.

Close to where I live is housing for political refugees. Mostly families with small children. I have no contact with these. Often the woman and some children are walking on the pavement outsode my house. Sometimes I say good morning sometimes not. I never get any response. They come from some African country and the woman will be completely covered on cloth. I need eye contact to be able to relate to some other human being in a proper way.

"What have you people done to tell that newspaper that don't hurt the feeling of others? I am sure you people must have done nothing but to laugh on the Muslim protests!! So it you are collectively feeling the pain what's the big deal about it??? And why should you be concerned, you people don't know how to give respect and earn respect. You don't have even regard for any religion, personality or even God. Its disgusting and shameful."

Powerful words indeed. Right to the core of the issue at hand. I can only plead guily as charged. I have come here, not to say we are perfect, but to say the hurt felt, is not the harm intended.

The message saying the newspaper was wrong has come through crystal clear. The message saying we do not treat Muslims the way they deserve has also come through crystal clear. All of that I am sure we realized. At least I very much hope so.

But once we understand this, can we then please ask you to stop boycott, not to burn the Danish flag (that in Denmark is the symbol of the people, it also contains a the christian symbol the cross, disrespect for religious symbols can be found on both sides), not to threaten Danish citizens with beheading and to leave our embassies at alone. It is very difficult for us to change our way, in a way that is positive for Muslims, if we are under attack by Muslims. What I am saying is we got the message. Now please give us some time to take corrective action.

My reply has in no way made your excellent post justice. I have tried to give an immediate, and sincere response.

Please free me from conspiray theories.

To ak_m_f,
My age is 50.

 



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Quote Wrangel Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2006 at 2:21pm

Regarding the burning of the Danish embassy in Damaskus I have just watched the Danish news.

Regarding the demonstration. The demonstration a couple of days ago was not the source. My misstake. This one passed without problems.

Today there was another demonstration in the Danish city of Hillerød. This was announced to a small sect of Danish neo-nazis. I am not sure about their agenda, but burning Quran may have been part of it. I frankly don't know how many neo-nazis sects we have in Danmark. If its one or a handful more. But as soon they show their ugly faces there is bound to be problems. There are always counter demonstrators, and it will always end up with vandalism and fights with the Danish police, in the middle trying to upheld peace and order.

No Quran has been burnt.

It was reported in the Danish news that an unnamed Iman had informed Syria that the Quran qould be burned in Danmark today. This contributed to the anger of people in Syria. Syrians not only burned the Danish embassy, also the Swedish one. This one was in the same building so thats explainable (sort of). But then then wandered to the Norwegian embassy and did the same. I find that rather odd.

Edit add: Also Chile's embassy in the same building as the Danish one was effected.

Pictures on TV shows a bunch of holigans completely out of control. I can only say that I do detest seeing any lynch mob going about their destructive business for whatever reason. 

Danish authorities are now going to examine if there are any Imans without Danish citizenship that can be expelled from Denmark. Some of them are Danish citizens and can't be touched. Many of these has been expelled from Egypt and other middle east countries for their extreme views, and found sanctionary in Denmark. I expect that the ones found acting against Danish interest, and that has done their best to create anger against Denmark, will be expelled. I support this. We cannot feed and protect people who does their best to hurt us.

I hope the embassy issue can be settled with diplomacy. Otherwise its becoming clear that we might need to shutdown Denmark for everything Muslim and completely turn our back to the Muslim world.

Things are not getting better. They are getting worse.

The Muslim world has made its point. Now is time to stop protest and give us a chance to make corrective actions in peace.



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Quote Wrangel Replybullet Posted: 04 February 2006 at 2:48pm

One more thing that might be important for the background of all this mess.

In my response to Angela above regarding the petition.

The refusal of the Danish primt minister to receive 11 Muslim embassadors should be viewed in this context.

The goverment got the request for the meeting, but understood they could only reply, sorry, we can do nothing about this newspaper publishing these pictures.

So rather then telling this to the face of the embassadors the goverment felt it would be more polite to explain this in a letter.

So it was not really a refusal. It was a decision to present the answer in another way. A misstake, probably yes. I don't think things would have been worse if the prime minister had seen them.

But then they might concluded that the prime minister saw them but refused to do nothing.

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