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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
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ummziba
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Quote ummziba Replybullet Posted: 03 April 2005 at 3:09am

Rehmet,  please excuse me for straying slightly off topic, but I feel I must reply to Angel.

ummziba said:

"There are many paths to God's light, none of us should ever believe only our way is the correct way.

Allah is the God of everyone and everything, no one group owns rights to His mercy and love."

Angel said:

"wow  Are you sure you are muslim?

This is a first I heard this from a muslim.

Please help me out because I thought muslims believe that Islam is the only true and correct way  , ummziba, you mention above that no one should ever believe that their way is the only correct way - if this is meant for ALL then islam cannot be the only correct true path  and that there are other paths to God's light."

From The Message of the Qur'an Translated and Explained by Muhammad Asad

al baqarah 2:62 - "Verily, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve."

Muhammad Asad says in his commentary: "The above passage - which recurs in the Qur'an several times - lays down a fundamental doctrine of Islam.  With a breadth of vision unparalleled in any other religious faith, the idea of "salvation" is here made conditional upon three elements only: belief in God, belief in the Day of Judgement, and righteous action in life."

It has been my understanding that Allah has been sending the same message to all peoples through all His prophets.  It is my understanding that "islam" (submission to God) is for all peoples, all places and all times.

If then, islam (submission to God), is open to all peoples, then the goal of everyone is to reach that state.  It seems to me that the path to submission to Allah is not nearly so important as actually getting there.

Please, more learned folk, correct me in this if I am wrong.

Peace, ummziba.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
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Rehmat
 
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Quote Rehmat Replybullet Posted: 03 April 2005 at 5:42am
Originally posted by tawhid

....THAT IS A LIE....when did i ever say that???????????

i did not....stop putting words in my mouth and try to pass them off as the truth

i challenge you to find ANY of my posts that said that....

my christ said..."the truth shall set you free"

tawhid

Hold on to your 'skullcap' Rabbi - I already admitted my guilt. I quoted that Every day Jewish prayer from Holy Talmud.

Have a nice reading

Know your enemy!
No time to waste. Act now!
Tomorrow it will be too late
What You Don’t Know Can Kill You

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Rehmat
 
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Quote Rehmat Replybullet Posted: 03 April 2005 at 5:57am
Originally posted by ummziba

....From The Message of the Qur'an Translated and Explained by Muhammad Asad

al baqarah 2:62 - "Verily, those who have attained to faith [in this divine writ], as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve."

With due respect to the late Jewish convert, Leopard Wies (Muhammad Assad) and you - the above translation is NOT according to the historical facts.

1. Most of Yahud (Jews) did follow the Moses' Law (Torah). They, like 95% of Jews today, follow another 'men-written' book know as 'The Talmud'. Therefore, such Jews cannot be considered 'People of Book', historically.

2. Nasarah (Christians) beliefs were even worse than the Jews during the revelation of Holy Qur'an. The vast majority of them believed in a pagan dogma of TRINITY. Therefore, they could not be the Qur'anic 'People of Book'. The true believers of Essa's (as) message (Ingeel) were known as 'Nazarene' (named after the birth-city of Essa - Nazareth). However, after the canonization of the New Testament in 325 CE - most those early followers of Ingeel were elliminated. The real founder of the present-day Christianity is St. Paul (Saul), pagan king Constantine, etc. and not the prophet Essa (as).

Wa Salaam.

Know your enemy!
No time to waste. Act now!
Tomorrow it will be too late
What You Don’t Know Can Kill You

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ummziba
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Quote ummziba Replybullet Posted: 03 April 2005 at 8:10am

With all due respect to you Rehmat, what you have said may or may not be true, but it does not refute what I have said.

I have read this verse (2:62) in many, many translations of the meaning of the Qur'an and they all pretty much convey the same message.  Did all of them interpret the verse incorrectly?

The Asad translation is not the only place I have heard that "islam" is for all peoples, all places, and all times.  Where is the proof that only Muslims will attain salvation?

Also, just to ask, what difference does it make what faith a convert to Islam used to be?  Are we not begun anew when we become Muslim?  Are not all our past sins erased?  You sound like you hold someone's conversion in contempt if they have formerly been Jewish.

I am just trying to find out if I understand this universal concept of salvation through "islam" (submission to Allah) correctly or not.

Sorry if I am being a pain to your thread!

Peace, ummziba.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 03 April 2005 at 9:00am

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullah wa barkatuhu,

To believe in Allah entails a belief in All His signs, in all His messengers, All His angels, and all His books.

Any who does not stand out upright on this criterion, is short in his belief of Allah.

2:285. The Messenger believeth in what hath been revealed to him from his Lord, as do the men of faith. Each one (of them) believeth in Allah, His angels, His books, and His apostles. "We make no distinction (they say) between one and another of His apostles." And they say: "We hear, and we obey: (We seek) Thy forgiveness, our Lord, and to Thee is the end of all journeys."

Those who do not have faith in the fact that the messenger of Islam, Muhammad (SAW) is a God sent messenger, and those who do not believe Quran to be a revealed book, they are incomplete in their belief of Allah.

Allah did not sent Islam to be rejected. Quran is a set of commandmant and prohibitions, a criterion to be judged with on the day of reckoning. It is said in the Quran that it will be a witness for and against mankind on that day.

The Ummah of Musa(AS) will be judged by the criterion of Torah, as long as the injeel was not revealed. After its revelation, who did not follow the Injeel are written as the rejectors of Allah and His signs. In the same way those who were upright on Injeel (The ummah of Isa AS) will be judge according to it, till the Quran was given to the mankind.

The Quran is the book for entire mankind, and jinn, and angels. Those who reject it, will still be judged according to its parameters.

The word Islam is derived from its root *istislam* which means submission to Allah, with a complete submission.

There is no other way to earn the good pleasure of allah except thru TOTAL submission to Him.

3:19. The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.

After the establishment of this final religion, there is no other way to salvation except THIS religion.

Even when Isa (AS) will descend, he will pray behind Mahdi(AS), this is a sign for us to understand, that THIS religion is the correct path, ... the sirat al mustaqeem. 

The Opening surah of the Quran is a prayer we seek allah to protect us against the ways of those who earned His anger and displeasure ... who went astray, and were misguided. (an amta alaihim, ghairil maghdubi alaihim walad daleen)

There is no other way except of those who believe and follow the ways of the messenger Muhammad (SAW).

2:1-5 A.L.M.

This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.

Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;

And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.

They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 03 April 2005 at 11:21am

I think, Rehmat, you may need to provide another translation of verse 2:62, if you plainly disagree as you say and I Quote ".... - the above translation is NOT according to the historical facts." with the one posted by Ummziba. Your "historical facts" and the verse are not in direct contradiction to each other. Moreover, even if only 1 out of zellion people of the book at the time of Prophet Mohammad didn't believe him, doesn't mean that there is some contradiction between the translation and your "historical facts". Quran is replete with verses chastising both jews and christians for their evil doings, however, the above mentioned translation of verse 2:62 as well as your "histroical facts" still admit the possiblity that there might be some (though, very few) of them still believing in one God and doing the right things only to please Him.

Regarding sis Nausheen's post, I think there is something more to it than simply stating that Islam is the "only" gate to havens in present times. To elaborate a little on it, when Prophet Mohammad brought Allah's message to the mankind, there was no excuse with the people (pagans or other people of the book) to refuse it. Knowing the fact that many of them accepted Islam and became muslims, however, there yet remained a large number of them who either willfully didn't accept or those to whom the message simply couldn't reach, remained at their own course. Of course those who rejected the message, despite the truth came to them, were the one called "kafirs" but those who simply couldn't get the message, were remained at large stuck to their own beliefs without rejecting Allah's  message (or reminder) that came through prophet Mohammad. I think, this is where this verse is referring to the people of the book and their reward for doing good is with Allah. Now, after prophet Mohammad, it is our (muslim ummah's) duty to convey this message to all those who don't know about this message. Again, there could be many categories of the people to whom this message is reached. Some who do understand the truth but yet don't accpet it because of their arrogance, can be called the "kafirs". There could be many other possiblities of innocent people, such as those to whom the message did reach but they did not accept it because of varrying circumstaces through which it reached to them. They may not be put into the category of "kafirs" simply because, they may have the excuse of getting this message through false media propoganda, or through some one whose Iman is not so strong. I would rather go to another step of saying that since the prophet Mohammad is not among us at this time of hour, there is inherrant human weakness in the most pious and God fearing muslim in the present time who is devoted in spreading the message of Allah, due to which some non-muslims may not get guidance and still remain at stuck with their previous beliefs. I think, it is among those who yet believe in oneness of God and do right things just to please Him, are the ones being referred in this verse. Hence, there would always remain the possibility of such people other than muslims to whom the verse refers. Theorectically speaking, Islam is not an all exculsive religion (that only Islam is the gate to success) nor it has pl uralism (that everyone's religion is ok), but it has its own character distinctly different than the other religions entirely dependent upon human wisdom through divine guidance. Rest Allah knows the best. Cheers.

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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 03 April 2005 at 11:41am

Bro Rehmat,

Your quotes from "Jewish Holy Talmud"   are relatively new to me. Can you guide me as to which book is this "Talmud" in the bible (OT) or its just a collection of wise sayings by their scholars or whatever they call it. If its just that as I guessed it, then its little naive to refer them here for their original beleifs. Of course you can find the same kind of stuff in muslim literature but can anyone use it to prove anything about our faith in Allah and concepts about Islam? Even they would admit its from human source and not a devinly authored source, so whats the point in bring it here. As with muslims differring on many such humanly writings (how much they may be reflected as pious in Islamic history), there could be many among jews who may or may not agree with this "Jewish holy Talmud". Anyhow, the knowledge about this source is good in its own right, but using it to tell others about jews "true beliefs" is something else that must be avoided in all circumstances. If I am not wrong, Quran talks about "Torah" and not "Talmud". Kindly correct me if I am wrong. Thanks and cheers! 

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tawhid
 
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Quote tawhid Replybullet Posted: 03 April 2005 at 12:38pm
Originally posted by Rehmat

Originally posted by tawhid

....THAT IS A LIE....when did i ever say that???????????

i did not....stop putting words in my mouth and try to pass them off as the truth

i challenge you to find ANY of my posts that said that....

my christ said..."the truth shall set you free"

tawhid

Hold on to your 'skullcap' Rabbi - I already admitted my guilt. I quoted that Every day Jewish prayer from Holy Talmud.

Have a nice reading

 

skullcap?

are  you slandering jews for their religious outfit?

i am not jewish anyways...but that is very mature of you....do all muslims mock those who do not believe in islam?

embarrassing for you, tawhid

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