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Osama
 
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Quote Osama Replybullet Posted: 09 December 2005 at 9:50am

Ubai bin Ka'b told us that the Prophet said, 'Once Moses stood up and addressed Bani Israel. He was asked who was the most learned man amongst the people. He said, 'I.’ Allah admonished him, as he did not attribute absolute knowledge to Him (Allah).


With regards to the above passage…..

The practice of idol worship within science is commonplace, Newtonian laws of gravity replaced by Einstein’s general relativity. E = mc2 may tell you something about energy, but their theories are censured, because they denied Allah’s sovereignty.


La-ilaha-ill-Allah

Mahammad-ur-Rasulullah


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Quote Osama Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2005 at 4:58am

May Allah’s Peace and Mercy be upon the Ummah


Exalted is He to whom
‘belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is on the earth, and all that is between them, and all that is under the soil.’ [20:6],’ There is no power but with Allah’ [18:39].


I feel sad that in our time together you wished to concentrate upon mine weaknesses, while neglecting to have the scope to see how confused I have been as a result of your numerous messages. I now feel happy to have taken back myself, and now wish to avoid been ridiculed for been myself.   



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Quote Khadija1021 Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2005 at 11:55am

Originally posted by rami

Division is not a sin nor is it pride, Allah says in the Quran i created you as different nations. Your generalisation does not aplly to muslims, further the division you see today in the muslim world is a direct result of the west not the doing of muslims. please learn the history beffore comenting on it.

Rami, how can you say this?  The very first division in Islam happen shortly after the death of the Prophet, what does that have to do with the west?  And division of nations is not the same as division in the Ummah.  Although it is a fact that He created us as different nations, He gave us the Qur’an as a means to unit all of humankind.  If all Muslims obeyed the Qur’an and did not live in disharmony with Allah or each other, it would have been impossible for outsiders to divide and conquer them.  I am not taking away from the actions of those outside of the Ummah in their attempts to conquer it in order to fulfill their own agenda.  However, pointing the finger at others doesn’t solve the problems that we currently see and feel in the Ummah.  If you prove to me that the Ummah lived in harmony prior to the invasion of the “west”, I will retract everything I have said.  However, I highly doubt you can.  You, too, should go back and read the history of the Ummah.  But be sure to start with the Prophet’s (pbuh) death and not with the invasion of the “west.”   Actually, start before his death and see how much work he did to until the Ummah. 

Originally posted by Osama

The practice of idol worship within science is commonplace, Newtonian laws of gravity replaced by Einstein’s general relativity. E = mc2 may tell you something about energy, but their theories are censured, because they denied Allah’s sovereignty.

I cannot make any comment about Newton but I do know that Einstein did believe in a spiritual force that not only created the universe but did so in a matter that is directly in line with what Muslims believe.  From the following quotes by him we see that:  1.) He believed an entity created the Universe.  2.) He referred to that entity as “God” ( Allah).  3.)  He believed in only one God.  That is, he doesn’t refer to the maker of the laws of the universe as plural (spirits), but rather as singular (spirit).  4.)   He believed that God created the universe with a purpose…that Allah was not capricious.  5.) He acknowledges the Superior nature of Allah over that of mankind.  6.) He acknowledges that science without God is of no importance.  7.) He also states that one should use scientific reasoning (as opposed to poetry) as a means to understand religion.   

"Everyone who is seriously involved in the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe - a spirit vastly superior to that of man…” [Letter to a child who asked if scientist pray, January 24, 1936; pg. 152 Calaprice]

"I cannot believe that God would choose to play dice with the universe." [pg. 56, Mayer]

"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." [pg. 153, Calaprice, Quotable Einstein]

Einstein’s stumbling block in faith is that he let the established “religions” of Europe (Judaism and Christianity) keep him from accepting that Allah does in fact care about us and interacts in our daily lives.  But if we look at his life history, it is easy to see how that happened.  He simply wanted to hold on to what was pure in his faith (what he knew and felt) and not fall prey to what he saw others do within the “Judeo/Christian” sphere of the WWII era. 

So, as you can see Osama, you are wrong in believing that Einstein did not credit Allah with the Universal Laws that gave rise to his theory of relativity.  In fact, it is clear that he believed if there was no such thing as God who created universal laws, then we could not develop our theories in the first place since the universe (if it existed at all) would simply be total chaos.  Einstein puts God in His proper place…before all else…the Creator of Allah things…The Sustainer of existence.

On a different note, Osama, please explain to me how you went from being “A.J.” a person interesting in becoming a Muslim and wanting some advice regarding problems which arise due to divisions (sects) in Islam to being someone who is not only a “well educated Muslim” but one who touts a love for Osama bin Laden as the only Muslim worthy to trust entirely?  Talk about division.  By saying that ‘it is for his [Osama bin Laden’s] cause I would give up my life with certainty!” implies that you have placed Osaman bin Laden above Allah.  You go as far as to say, “I would gladly blow myself up your face.”   It is clear by the very ayats that you quote that it is better to forgive those who wrong us. 

The recompense for an evil is an evil like thereof, but whoever forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allâh. Verily, He likes not the Zâlimûn (oppressors, polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.). (Sura 42, Ayat 40)

Why would Allah say this to us?  I truly believe if we do like acts for what is done to us, it does something to our souls.  Look at their souls for doing those very things in the first place.  Do you see how black their souls are?  Of course you do, it is obvious you do.  Sure we are not to blame for doing likewise to them (as you pointed out in Sura 42, Ayat 41); however, there are consequences for all of our actions and Allah is warning us of those consequences.  Allah gives signs and wisdom for those who truly want to see.   

And verily, whosoever shows patience and forgives that would truly be from the things recommended by Allâh.  (Sura 42, Ayat 43)

Allah does not want us to risk having the same kind of souls that those who oppress us have.  We should be patient and know that this world is a place of testing and that our true life will be in Paradise.  We should know that if we blacken our souls in this world, there will be a grave price to pay on the Day of Judgment.

If you resort to blowing yourself up in someone’s face, you risk a grave situation.  If you harm an innocent person, if you destroy dwellings or crops, herds or even a data palm tree, you surely have gone away from the way set by Allah and have crossed over to the way of those who oppress you…the Zâlimûn.  Allah says we are not to blame if we choose to seek revenge but be very careful what He meant by that.  There are strict guidelines for taking revenge if we go that route.  We may not be blameful for deciding to take revenge but we are blameworthy for the means by with me chose to do so and the results if it goes beyond the boundaries of what Allah ordains for us.  Osama bin Laden doesn’t make up the rules of war even in the 21st century.  No man does, only Allah has that right.  You are right in saying “They also deny they can be out plotted by a Higher Force”; however, that higher force is Allah, not Osama bin Laden or any other human here on earth. 


The way (of blame) is only against those who oppress men and wrongly rebel in the earth, for such there will be a painful torment.  (Sura 42, Ayat 42)

What is the painful torment which Allah refers to in the ayat?  For you or someone else to blow them up?  No, it is what awaits them after this life just as those who live on Allah’s Straight Path are promised something as well…that is, a place in Paradise.

Don’t get me wrong.  I’m not saying not to fight oppression.  But there are far better ways to fight oppress than to deviate from the ways Allah set down for us in the Qur’an.  Deviating from Allah’s ways is simply another form of division.  Truly it cannot be good for the Ummah.  You say you are fighting against division; however, after reading you evolution (through posting under the guise of multiple names), I simply see you making the same mistake you accuse others of making.  Division is division; even if it is served on a plate you call “unity” and oppression by any other name is still oppression.  Just as Allah said there is no compulsion in Islam, we cannot force the Ummah into unity.  That will only come about as governments and scholars begin to allow the Ummah in their communities to experience Islam in its true nature, a nature which is uninhibited by human greed and desire for power and control. 

I know of only one Muslim (pbuh) who had the ability to lead the Ummah in the pure way Allah commanded it to be lead.  No man can achieve his greatness because he was ordained by Allah.  No one in the Ummah has the right to place themselves at the same level with the Prophet (pbhu).  Our job is to live as good Muslims and to spread the Ummah, not by force, but by example.  The Prophet (pbuh) had his duties, we have ours. He (pbuh) lived up to his, have we lived up to ours? 

We should know in our hearts that the success of Islam is guarantee by Allah and that no matter how many divisions take place within the Ummah, the Qur’an cannot be divided or corrupted.  That is the Great Gift Allah gave the Ummah.  It is greater than any gift He had given before.  We, oh brothers and sister of Islam, were promised a Book that would not/could not be corrupted as those before it had been.  However, because Allah in His Infinite Wisdom chose to leave humankind in his state of “freewill”, some have found other ways to twist and bend the Qur’an to serve their own agendas instead of what Allah desires for His creation. 

So, I have a choice, I can spend my days living my life on the Straight Path of Allah carrying His True Way as given through the Qur’an to others through my words and deeds as He commands me to do, or I can jump into the cyst-pool of chaos which has been created by those who either do not believe or veer off the path of Allah.  The choice I make will speak volumes for my soul on the Day of Judgment as will yours.

May Allah guide us to ever greater enlightenment as to His Way.  Ameen.

Allah Hafiz

PAZ, Khadija



Edited by Khadija1021
Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2005 at 12:55pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Rami, how can you say this?  The very first division in Islam happen shortly after the death of the Prophet, what does that have to do with the west?  And division of nations is not the same as division in the Ummah.  Although it is a fact that He created us as different nations, He gave us the Qur’an as a means to unit all of humankind.  If all Muslims obeyed the Qur’an and did not live in disharmony with Allah or each other, it would have been impossible for outsiders to divide and conquer them.  I am not taking away from the actions of those outside of the Ummah in their attempts to conquer it in order to fulfill their own agenda.  However, pointing the finger at others doesn’t solve the problems that we currently see and feel in the Ummah.  If you prove to me that the Ummah lived in harmony prior to the invasion of the “west”, I will retract everything I have said.  However, I highly doubt you can.  You, too, should go back and read the history of the Ummah.  But be sure to start with the Prophet’s (pbuh) death and not with the invasion of the “west.”   Actually, start before his death and see how much work he did to until the Ummah.


Khadijah you are like a person coming late to a conversation and atempting to get the gist of the discussion but not understanding the context of anything that has been said.

Division it self is not a sin Allah created people different, i said this in relation to a statment Osama made. Regarding the remainder of your comments i am not discussing solving the problems of the muslim ummah i was giving the br some historical information.

i care nothing for your retraction you have not understood the context of what i said in relation to the converstation you have just steered it ofcourse.


Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote Khadija1021 Replybullet Posted: 10 December 2005 at 7:00pm

Assalamu Alaikum

 

Originally posted by rami

Khadijah you are like a person coming late to a conversation and atempting to get the gist of the discussion but not understanding the context of anything that has been said.

Rami, are you saying this because you have nothing more meaningful to say about my comment?  I didn't know there was a time limit on posting comments to a thread or any posts within that thread.  If there is, would you please show me the rule that says so.  Not only have I made a few posts on this thread prior to today, I have read every post in this thread and I did so again right before making my last comment.  I am not a child and I'm not uneducated.  I can follow a conversation despite my alleged handicap of being a woman.  And I don’t cower just because someone chastises me by attempting to belittle my intelligence. 

Originally posted by rami

Division it self is not a sin Allah created people different, i said this in relation to a statment Osama made.


I never said that division is a sin in itself.  I am fully away that Allah created people such that they were divided into nations.  Where did I state otherwise?  In fact, I agreed with that. 

Originally posted by rami

Regarding the remainder of your comments i am not discussing solving the problems of the muslim ummah i was giving the br some historical information

I didn’t ask you to read the remainder of my discussion or to even comment on it.  It was addressed to Osama.  What I was telling you in my comment addressed to you is that you are wrong in blaming the west for the division that has arisen within the Ummah today.  You said:

“the division you see today in the muslim world is a direct result of the west not the doing of muslims”

I was merely trying to point out to you that that is not the case.  The division in the Ummah started as soon as the Prophet (pbuh) took his last breath (probably even before that but not by him).  How can the division that started at that time have been created by the west?  First of all, the US didn’t even exist and Britian was no where close to being a power threat at that time.  As you yourself point out, it was not until the past 500 years that the west (Imperial powers) started to plot the “demise” of the Ummah.  If anything the western powers merely took advantage (and I’m not saying this as a means to discount or minimize what the west has done) of the division that was already there.  What about the 900 years before that?  Do you consider the division between the Sunni and Shi’i to be somehow less fundamental or important than the division you clam has taken place within the past 500 years?  Take Iraq for instance.  Do you think that the US would be in there with support from the Shi’i if the Shi’i had never split from the main body of the Ummah in the first place?  And isn’t that still the division that is by-in-large having such a big impact on what is taking place in Iraq today?  I’m not discounting the “Imperical-powers-that-be’s” involvement by any means; however, if there was no tension between these two “fractions” in the Ummah at the time, it is likely the “evil west” would not have had the foothold it did to enter Iraq in the first place.  My point is this, if there was no division to begin with, it would have been so much tougher for the west to penetrate the Ummah.  However, you appear to want me (and others) to overlook the parts of Islamic history you don’t want us to discuss here by waving it away as irrelevant to the discussion.  You have the right to consider it irrelevant but I also have the right to consider it of great significance to this topic. 

Originally posted by rami

i care nothing for your retraction you have not understood the context of what i said in relation to the converstation you have just steered it ofcourse.

First of all Brother Rami, what makes you so certain that I owe you or anyone else a retraction for what I said?  I do not and, hence, I will not.  I don’t have a problem admitting when I am wrong; but I will not admit to something just because someone else thinks I am wrong or is trying to “put me in my place.”   Second of all, I didn’t misunderstand anything here.  Just because someone makes the claim that I did, doesn’t make it so.   And third of all, I would like you to be specific as to how I steered this thread off course.  All of my responses were directly related to things that were said in this thread.  And they all related back to the original post concerning division within the Ummah with the exception of the comments on Einstein which were a response to Osama’s comment that Newton and Einstein “denied Allah’s sovereignty.”  Which, by the way, you started it with that off-hand remark of yours to Osama, and I quote you, In reality it contains many mistakes and to put it in analogy, it was like a high school physics teacher attempting to corect Albert Einstien on E = mc2 .”  However, since someone started it (i.e., you) and then Osama made such an error regarding Einstein’s spiritual beliefs, I felt it important to point out the mistake in his thinking so that other’s who didn’t know about Einstein would not merely assume that Osama’s position regarding him was correct.  It’s kind of like walking down a footpath and coming across a big broken bottle.  Are you or are you not obligated to pick it up so that others do not cut themselves on it.  Although you did not intend for the broken glass to be a part of your walk, by virtue of its existence, it becomes a part of it.

Allah Hafiz

PAZ, Khadija

Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
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Quote free Replybullet Posted: 12 December 2005 at 7:09pm

each see's the world through their own eyes, we all have a point, and often miss we are speaking along the same lines.

     

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Quote free Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2005 at 1:12am
OK, there is a lot to go through at once…..

Rami, whether you accept it or not, I as a revert have become very confused by your comments. I am no closer in knowing whom to support (or not), and I still feel as though I am a pawn in a game of - who does not have to change! For it is impossible for people to help others innocently, when always in the background they wish you to support them as a pose to their contemporary. If there were consensus this would not have to be, as all there would be would be people inviting to the only message.

My pain and confusion although means nothing to you, for you cannot perceive the pain you have put me through.


Khadija,

Where do I start?

However, since someone started it (i.e., you) and then Osama made such an error regarding Einstein’s spiritual beliefs, I felt it important to point out the mistake in his thinking so that other’s who didn’t know about Einstein would not merely assume that Osama’s position regarding him was correct.   
   
E=MC2 is a formula that neglects and separates the force of the Lord, how can one talk about the relationship between energy and matter (times light squared), while neglecting the One Force that controls all the others?

Einstein puts God in His proper place…before all else…the Creator of Allah things…The Sustainer of existence.

Did Einstein not fail in his mission? To unite the energy forces with gravity? Hence proving One Lord? E=MC2 is inadequate in explaining that Force we call God. Are you aware of the details of that Force? (ie are you aware of other than E=MC2?) Then how is it you have the authority to question my response?


On a different note, Osama, please explain to me how you went from being “A.J.” a person interesting in becoming a Muslim and wanting some advice regarding problems which arise due to divisions (sects) in Islam to being someone who is not only a “well educated Muslim” but one who touts a love for Osama bin Laden as the only Muslim worthy to trust entirely?

Can I not be self-read in Islam, while still not understanding the division of each clan?

By saying that ‘it is for his [Osama bin Laden’s> cause I would give up my life with certainty!” implies that you have placed Osaman bin Laden above Allah. You go as far as to say, “I would gladly blow myself up your face.”   

Please do not put words into my mouth! Rami was asking me to become of him, I was merely stating I would rather choose bin Laden, that is because I am not confused by his message, and he like me was neglected by calling for unity.

You say you are fighting against division; however, after reading you evolution (through posting under the guise of multiple names), I simply see you making the same mistake you accuse others of making.   

I am all alone and been forced to beg for help, I feel like I am on the verge of a break down and all you can do is question why I have changed my name! You really want to know?

I am desperate for help but am offered nought but words, words that neglect unity and hence confuse me, so I become very down and despondent and decide to leave, only then to end up even more alone, so I come back even though it doesn’t feel like home!

So in other words I don’t fit in here, but have no where else to go, I am advised to choose a path which feels right to me, and then when I do all criticise me. If you don’t want me to speak, well all I asked for was some practical help because non-Muslim’s hath rejected me.

Each time I honestly share these things with people, I allow the devil to hurt me because I wear my heart on my sleeve.




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Quote free Replybullet Posted: 13 December 2005 at 1:18am

was i offered no help becasue of what i saith?

was i offered no help because i didn't pick a sect from the division?


please just tell me why you didn't help me! you know i am struggling to move on with my life, where is the mercy?


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