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A.J.
 
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Quote A.J. Replybullet Posted: 29 November 2005 at 9:24am

Thank you for your time Rami,


I kind of understand what you are saying Rami, but I sort of feel like I am been ushered into a specific ‘tribe’s’ way of doing things. For example each Masjid in my hometown offers prayers at a different time, and it feels like they are each vying for the position of - ‘not having to change/compromise’, while little ole me - my qualities - have a lot of work to do.

This kind of makes me feel like I don’t belong, because I have to join someone else’s tribe, this is in contrast to embracing a universally shared way of life. So I guess my question to you Rami is – It is the Scholars whom decide things such as prayer times, hence is it not they whom have created these separations? And is it not they whom need to lead the way in compromise?

Or am I been stupid in not embracing any ole tribe?


Kind regards
AJ      


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Khadija1021
 
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Quote Khadija1021 Replybullet Posted: 29 November 2005 at 9:27am

Assalamu Alaikum

A.J., MASHALLAH.  I completely understand your position.  But the way is not to regress...that is, don't pull away from Islam merely because you cannot do 100% of what you hear others say you should do.  Since you do not live in a Muslim household, like me, I know it may be hard for you to meet all of the daily requirements.  I look at my currently situation as like that of a Muslim who is traveling to non-Muslim community.  In such cases, a Muslim is allowed to do some things differently, such as to pray sitting up or to shorten their prayers.  They also do not have to fast.  I'm not saying for you not to do those things if you can, but if it is not possible to do then you should do only to the limits of what you can because otherwise it will cause discord in your home and regardless of what anyone else says or thinks, being safe in your home is important.   So, do what you can to the best limits of what you can do and Allah will know the intention in your heart.  It is far better to do all that you can even if it is not perfect than to regress and do nothing.

With respect to bad habits, since you don't say what they are, it is hard to give you any advice or guidance on that; however, I can say that unlearning bad habits is tough but if we are sincere in our prayers to Allah, He wil help us and guide us to do that which is right.  And please don't think that just because someone was not born into a Muslim family that they will have bad habits will all Muslims have none.  It would be lovely if all Muslims were as Allah commands them to be but that is something I believe we will only see if we are one of the blessed who are allowed to enter Paradise.  Do your best, pray to Allah for forgiveness of your shortcomings and keep your eyes and your heart on what truly matters.  May Allah bless you, guide you and keep you on His Straight Path.  Ameen.

Allah Hafiz

PAZ,

Khadija

Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 29 November 2005 at 10:22am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

I kind of understand what you are saying Rami, but I sort of feel like I am been ushered into a specific ‘tribe’s’ way of doing things. For example each Masjid in my hometown offers prayers at a different time, and it feels like they are each vying for the position of - ‘not having to change/compromise’, while little ole me - my qualities - have a lot of work to do.

I think a person should make a distinction between what is right Islam and what is wrong or rather establish the ideals then from there look at the reality on the ground. Doing this you are then able to judge right from wrong without having doubt.

The reality in a multicultural scociety is that there are many diferent groups practacing difernt things and you get the impression there is no one right way or coherant system. Living in a muslim country you will see more unity in practice of the islamic faith rather than the diveristy you see in the west.

You are right in your perception about muslims in the west they have formed these little tribes with each masjid as HQ for each nationality, so i dont recomend you so much join any of these groups. This may get a little confusing but the goups we are talking about at present are not the groups i was reffering to in my earlier post, your local masjids more than likely have nationalisitic issues which they must get past before you see real unity of islam.

regarding different prayer times this is not the issue which you percieve it to be, both times are accptable in islam and niether are wrong. This is becouse both are based on the actions of rasul allah but the difference lies in establishing which method he used for calculating the time for prayer on a regular basis. All scholars agree that if our prophet did an action it can never be said to be haram unless it is specificly mentioned. In the time of our prophet they calculated the time of prayer by the length of the shadow in relation to an object, at the time of the asr and another prayer which i cant remember which at this point, one of our Great scholars said the shadow it should be 1 length of the object while another says it should be 1.5 or 2 times the length of the object both positions are based upon sound evidence and niether can be disprived so it is up to you to decide which evidence you agree with and has more benefit and follow it.

In any case it would not be wrong for you to pray at the time of which ever masjid you are in even if you do not agree with it becouse both methods have there own sound evidence in the actions of our prophet.

This kind of makes me feel like I don’t belong, because I have to join someone else’s tribe, this is in contrast to embracing a universally shared way of life. So I guess my question to you Rami is – It is the Scholars whom decide things such as prayer times, hence is it not they whom have created these separations? And is it not they whom need to lead the way in compromise?

Or am I been stupid in not embracing any ole tribe?

You have to difarentiate between your local shaykh and the scholars i am refering to. The legal system in islam was developed a long time ago and things such as prayer times have been established and practiced for 1400 years now with complete harmony between the diferent methods. The madhhabs are universal and not limited to any nationality or region of the world , you will find people from many diferent races following any one of these four madhhabs this isnt the problem. What you percieve as tribes is from the natinalisitic issues which muslims as a whole have had to face becouse of recent upheavals in there past and the distruction of the islamic state which was in reality one huge country stretching from north africa to china, known as the Ottoman Empire. I dont know how well you know you history.

You local scholar does not make the prayer time he is more than likely following one of the accpted methods in which you can pray, but i guess you are simply using the prayer time as an example.

In islam we have four schools of legal thought not one so in reality we have slightly different ways of doing some things, so for a muslim to ensure integrity and consistancy in there practice we choose one school and follow islam according to its rulings even though it is not wrong to on occasion follow the methods of the other, so when you mention a
universally shared way of life it has always been in this context it is just the diversity of groups in the west that gives you the impression that this unity does not exist but as i said it is perfectly fine to pray at any one of these diferent times.

I have probably given you to much information to fast, take your time and read what you can so you have a better grounding in what the ideal is.
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote aishag88 Replybullet Posted: 29 November 2005 at 11:32am

 Salaam Alikum AJ,

 You will face many challages in your life.I have been Muslim for 3 years, and I still face probelms with my famliy.

 Rami is right dhikr will help you, calm you. And you can do it anywhere and as many times as you like. There is a hadith  (this is from my memory) : The Prophet (pbuh)  said " The only thing the people of prardies will regret is not saying more dhikr..."

 I am missing something to that...I am sorry, I don't remember the book I heard it from. Anyone know it?

 May Allah help you, I will pray for you..

 

 



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A.J.
 
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Quote A.J. Replybullet Posted: 30 November 2005 at 10:13am

Thank you again for your replies…..


Dear Rami,

I am not sure you have understood the point I was trying to make with regards to prayer times…..

A more detailed example could be that of Isha Salah, if it becomes available to offer at 18:38 for example, some Masjid’s would offer congregational Salah at 19:00, some at 19:15, some at 19:30, some at 20:00, it seems the Imam’s make up their own times!


`Uqbah bin `Amir (May Allah be pleased with him) said: One day the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) went out and asked Allah's forgiveness for the martyrs of the battle of Uhud after eight years. It seemed that by so doing, he bid farewell to the living and the dead. He then came back, rose to the pulpit and said, "I shall be your precursor; I am a witness for you (before Allah), and I will be present before you at the River (Haud Al-Kauthar). By Allah I can see with my own eyes the Haud from this place. I am not afraid that you will associate anything with Allah in worship after (my demise), but I apprehend that you will vie with one another for the life of the world.'' The narrator said: It was the last time that I saw the Messenger of Allah (PBUH).
[Al-Bukhari and Muslim].


If you (as an Ummah) continue to remain arrogant like this, and vie with each other for the position of – ‘not having to change’ – then how do you expect people to take you seriously when you are asking them to change their entire lives?! I feel like nothing more than a pawn in a game of - ‘we know best’ - ‘our path is the correct one’!

I have been told that I should keep quite as I have not sorted myself out yet, and now I would like to say the very same thing to you! If you as an Ummah can’t agree because of each scholar/Imam’s arrogance, then I think you should keep quite until you have agreed, and stop confusing us poor innocent people who embrace Islam for understanding and clarity.


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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 01 December 2005 at 12:06am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Have you leanrt the Fiqh (Islamic law) behind the times of prayer and from this you are judging there is something wrong with there actions?

Kindly point out to me the error of there actions acording to what islam defines as accptable times for salat.

The hadith you quote although aplies to the state of muslims today does not apply to the times in which muslims should pray, your generalised points is why i assumed your argument of diferences in prayer times earlier was just an example of the things you percieve as being wrong.

I dont know what muslims have been saying to you, many muslims are misguided and dont follow the religion the way our prophet taught it. This is why i advised that you learn the ideal ( or traditional Islam) and from there you would be in a position to see which muslims are acting according to the religion and which are just talking from themself.

Just becouse a person may Quote hadith or Quran does not make what they say correct, they could be interprating matters for themself and completely contrary to scholarly understanding.



Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote A.J. Replybullet Posted: 02 December 2005 at 8:04am

Rami stated:
“Living in a muslim country you will see more unity in practice of the islamic faith rather than the diveristy you see in the west.”



Yes, and why? Because each ruler, of each Muslim country leads the people according to their own interpretation of Islam, and not by a mutually agreed consensus across the Muslim Ummah.


Rami stated:
“Just becouse a person may Quote hadith or Quran does not make what they say correct, they could be interprating matters for themself and completely contrary to scholarly understanding.”



Do the scholars have mutual consensus among themselves? And if they do, why is there so much division rooted in the rulers own-self? (ie nationality)


Everyone knows that one of the devils tricks is to divide and conquer; after all he was the first being to introduce the sin of division, better known as – pride - (ie when he refused to obey Allah {SWT}, and bow to Adam {SAW}). If you look at the situation in Iraq, the devil has managed to divide and conquer; separating the country into practically three countries, just as the Ottoman Empire was divided before it.

How long do you intend to let the devil get his way?


Ibn Masood said: I heard a person reciting a (Quranic) verse in a certain way, and I had heard the Prophet reciting the same verse in a different way. So I took him to the Prophet and informed him of that but I noticed the sign of disapproval on his face, and then he said, "Both of you are correct, so don't differ, for the nations before you differed, so they were destroyed." [Sahih Al-Bukhari - Volume 4, Book 56, Number 682]


Is it not apparent that Islam will not succeed - when it’s people are fighting amongst each other - in division?


O you who believe! Fear Allah as He should be feared and die not except in a state of Islam. And hold fast all together by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you) and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for you were enemies and He joined your hearts in love so that by His grace you became brethren; and you were on the brink of the pit of fire and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make his signs clear to you: that you may be guided. [Holy Qur’an, Surah 3 - Al ‘Imran: 102-3]


People who do not advocate - unity of the Ummah - are those whom have chosen the life of this world, their own worldly prospects are more important (to them), than the true success in the Hereafter - achieved through unity in Islam.

Pride is most evident within those who posses worldly power and wealth, it is they whom prevent unity by refusing to bow!



Could you ever see King Abdullah of Jordan changing any of his ways, due to a pious Muslim advising him of a better way?




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Quote A.J. Replybullet Posted: 02 December 2005 at 8:31am


I only mentioned the difference in prayer times, as it represents a deeper division, sorry for deeming the everyday a good starting place for scholar’s to discuss and overcome those divisions.

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