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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Will Muslims accept Jesus as thier saviour. Post Reply Post New Topic
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 25 July 2014 at 5:13pm
Originally posted by Power of GOD

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings islamispeace,

... different writers... different interpretation... different time and place... different word of mouth...
still the same essential message Smile  carried far and wide.
asalaam and blessings.


What a load of tripe!  It is not a "different interpretation" and so on.  It is a flat-out contradiction between supposed "inspired" documents.  The "centurion" either referred to Jesus as the "son of God" or as "a righteous man".  Your gospels can't even agree with each other on simple matters such as this.  Big%20smile 


Contradictory testimony at a trial usually leads a to mistrial.  When "witnesses" cannot agree on even simple issues, then what credibility do they really have?  What good are many "witnesses" if one says one thing and another says another thing?  Shocked
 The only thing that contradicts Jesus is the quran Muhammad has got his so called revalation without any witnesses that his so called angel was seen by other why must he always go the cave to receive his so called revelation where nobody can claim he was a liar.


I see that you did not respond to what I showed regarding the false prophecy attributed to Jesus (peace be upon him) nor to the contradictory nature of the so-called "many witnesses" of the Bible.  Changing the subject does not negate the clear fact that the Bible is self-contradictory.  You can try to ignore the evidence, like most apologists LOL, or you can stop lying to yourself and embrace the truth.  You are not doing anyone any favors if you accept the truth.  It's for your own good.


Edited by islamispeace - 25 July 2014 at 5:14pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 25 July 2014 at 6:43pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Changing the subject does not negate the clear fact that the Bible is self-contradictory.

LOL I find it hilarious that theists are so quick to point out contradictions in others' scriptures, but are totally blind to the flaws in their own.

Certainly there are many contradictions in the Bible -- but then that is to be expected, because the Bible has many authors and does not claim to be the literal Word of God.

Unlike the Quran, which is rife with contradictions as well.  Just one of dozens of examples:
"Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve." (5:69)
"And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers." (3:85)

So should Caringheart have no fear, or is she one of the losers? Tongue
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 25 July 2014 at 8:34pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by islamispeace

Changing the subject does not negate the clear fact that the Bible is self-contradictory.

LOL I find it hilarious that theists are so quick to point out contradictions in others' scriptures, but are totally blind to the flaws in their own.

Certainly there are many contradictions in the Bible -- but then that is to be expected, because the Bible has many authors and does not claim to be the literal Word of God.

Unlike the Quran, which is rife with contradictions as well.  Just one of dozens of examples:
"Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the last day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve." (5:69)
"And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers." (3:85)

So should Caringheart have no fear, or is she one of the losers? Tongue


I find it hilarious that an ignoramus just doesn't learn his lesson and continues to try his luck and pretend like he knows what he is talking about!  LOL

Now, let's see if the pretend Sheik completely missed the point of Surah 5:69 (Hint: Yes, he did! Wink)

"O Messenger! proclaim the (message) which hath been sent to thee from thy Lord. If thou didst not, thou wouldst not have fulfilled and proclaimed His mission. And Allah will defend thee from men (who mean mischief). For Allah guideth not those who reject Faith.  Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.  Those who believe (in the Qur'an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.  We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them messengers, every time, there came to them a messenger with what they themselves desired not - some (of these) they called impostors, and some they (go so far as to) slay.  They thought there would be no trial (or punishment); so they became blind and deaf; yet Allah (in mercy) turned to them; yet again many of them became blind and deaf. But Allah sees well all that they do.  They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help." (Surah Al-Maeda, 5:67-72)

As we can see, when read in context, the verse makes it very clear that the Jews, Christians and Sabians that it is referring to are those who lived before the coming of Islam and had believed in their prophets and scriptures and did not deviate by adopting false beliefs.  Those whose minds have not been befuddled by their own ignorance and st**idity can readily see this fact. 

Sorry, Sheik Ron!  You screwed up again!  This must be getting frustrating for you...Embarrassed     

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Power of GOD Replybullet Posted: 25 July 2014 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Power of GOD

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings islamispeace,

... different writers... different interpretation... different time and place... different word of mouth...
still the same essential message Smile  carried far and wide.
asalaam and blessings.


What a load of tripe!  It is not a "different interpretation" and so on.  It is a flat-out contradiction between supposed "inspired" documents.  The "centurion" either referred to Jesus as the "son of God" or as "a righteous man".  Your gospels can't even agree with each other on simple matters such as this.  Big%20smile 


Contradictory testimony at a trial usually leads a to mistrial.  When "witnesses" cannot agree on even simple issues, then what credibility do they really have?  What good are many "witnesses" if one says one thing and another says another thing?  Shocked
 The only thing that contradicts Jesus is the quran Muhammad has got his so called revalation without any witnesses that his so called angel was seen by other why must he always go the cave to receive his so called revelation where nobody can claim he was a liar.


I see that you did not respond to what I showed regarding the false prophecy attributed to Jesus (peace be upon him) nor to the contradictory nature of the so-called "many witnesses" of the Bible.  Changing the subject does not negate the clear fact that the Bible is self-contradictory.  You can try to ignore the evidence, like most apologists LOL, or you can stop lying to yourself and embrace the truth.  You are not doing anyone any favors if you accept the truth.  It's for your own good.
 At least there were many witnesses in the bible that witnesed that Jesus was the Son of God it was the jews,romans,samaritans and gentiles.
 
Does God intend that we would start with Judaism, then change to Christianity, then change to Islam? No. God has been consistent. He has never been interested in building a religion.Beginning with Abraham, God has been clear about revealing himself to us so that we could be in relationship with him. A relationship, not a religion, is God's ultimate purpose in creating us.
Let's say we have a vase. It has no flowers, no water in it. It is merely full of air. What is the difference between the air outside the vase and the air inside the vase? The air inside the vase has shape, right? It is the same air in composition, but the air inside the vase has shape.
If we take that vase and smash it against the wall, what happens to the air inside of it? Does it die? No, air cannot die. The vase can be in thousands of pieces, but nothing happens to the air, except lose its shape.

When Jesus died on the cross, his body died, but the Spirit of Jesus, the Spirit of God never dies. God took on the form of man, in Jesus. He took on the shape of man, but Jesus was never only man.

On the cross, Jesus paid for our sin and removed the barrier that stood between us and him. Because of his death, we can be at peace with God. Though we were guilty, the justice of God was fully met by Jesus, the Lamb of God who suffered for us. And the love of God was fully expressed in that Jesus willingly laid down his life for us.

You may say, "That's not fair." And you're right. We don't deserve Jesus' dying for us. But this was God's solution for us. Do we tell God how it must be?

Jesus paid our penalty of death, so that we would not need to die for our sins. He wants us to come into relationship with him, to know his love, and to have eternal life.

One more story. A true story, to help you understand what Jesus did for us.

 
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2014 at 7:08am
Originally posted by islamispeace

As we can see, when read in context, the verse makes it very clear that the Jews, Christians and Sabians that it is referring to are those who lived before the coming of Islam and had believed in their prophets and scriptures and did not deviate by adopting false beliefs.

Yes, you could probably resolve the contradiction by changing the verse from present tense to past tense, i.e., "believed" instead of "believe".  However, that isn't what 5:69 actually says, and no translation I know of has dared to make that change.  In fact, the Yusuf Ali translation adds the following footnote for emphasis: "As God's message is one, Islam recognizes true faith in other forms, provided that it be sincere, supported by reason, and backed up by righteous conduct."

By the way, there is a very similar verse at 2:62:
"Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
Again, present tense, not past tense; and this verse immediately follows a discussion of Moses.  I hope you're not going to claim that it refers only to Christians during the time of Moses. Wink
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2014 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Yes, you could probably resolve the contradiction by changing the verse from present tense to past tense, i.e., "believed" instead of "believe".  However, that isn't what 5:69 actually says, and no translation I know of has dared to make that change.  In fact, the Yusuf Ali translation adds the following footnote for emphasis: "As God's message is one, Islam recognizes true faith in other forms, provided that it be sincere, supported by reason, and backed up by righteous conduct."


LOL So Sheik Ron is still trying to pass himself off as someone who has actually done some research.  Hmmm, let's see what Yusuf Ali actually stated in his commentary to 5:69 (pay attention Sheik; you need some education Wink):

"Here, as in Surat al Baqarah (2:62), the Qur'an underscores the importance of true and genuine faith, which is to be judged by a sincere belief in Allah and man's accountability to Him backed by righteous conduct rather than by mere forms or labels. In both places it repudiates the false claims of the People of the Book that they had a special relationship with Allah for they were the children of Abraham; that they were a chosen people with special privileges, and no matter what they did, their high status would remain unaffected. Here this false notion is refuted and the People of the Book are being reminded that it is through sincere belief and righteous conduct rather than pretentious claims that man can win his Lord's pleasure and achieve ultimate success. The verse does not purport to lay down an exhaustive list of the articles of faith. Nor does it seek to spell out the essentials of a genuine belief in Allah, which has no meaning unless it is accompanied by belief in His Prophets for it is through their agency alone that we know Allah's Will and can abide by it in our practical lives. This is especially true of His final Prophet, Muhammad (peace be on him) whose message is universal, and not confined to any particular group or section of humanity. Belief in the Prophethood of Muhammad (peace be on him) is thus an integral part and a logical corollary of belief in Allah. Moreover, it is also an essential test of genuineness of such belief. This becomes clear when the verse is read in conjunction with other relevant verses of the Qur'an. See, for instance, 4:170, 5:16, 21, 7:157, 158, 21:107, 25:1, 33:40, 61:6. See also 2:40 , 3:31 -32. 4:150-151." (http://bradfordisoc.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/quran-yusuf-ali.pdf)

So, we can see that Sheik Ron never actually bothered to read Yusuf Ali's commentary. Star

We can see Yusuf Ali's point even more clearly in the commentary to 2:62 (which the fake Sheik quoted to save himself from embarrassment):

"The point of the verse is that Islam does not teach an exclusive doctrine, and is not meant exclusively for one people. The Jews claimed this for themselves, and the Christians in their origin were a sect of the Jews. Even the modern organized Christian churches, though they have been, consciously or unconsciously, influenced by the Time Spirit, including the historical fact of Islam, yet cling to the idea of Vicarious Atonement, which means that all who do not believe in it or who lied previously to the death of Christ are at a disadvantage spiritually before the Throne of Allah. The attitude of Islam is entirely different.  Islam existed before the preaching of Muhammad on this earth: the Qur'an expressly calls Abraham a Muslim (3:67). Its teaching (submission to Allah's will) has been and will be the teaching of Religion for all time and for all peoples."

Hence, the reference to Jews, Christians and Sabians includes those who believed before the coming of Muhammad (peace be upon him), since they were in reality Muslims. All prophets were Muslims, since they submitted to the One God.  Therefore, their followers were also Muslims.  And as for those who lived in the time of Muhammad (peace be upon him), if they were sincere in faith, they would believe in Muhammad as well.  That is why people like Bahira the Monk and Waraqah ibn Naufal believed in Muhammad (peace be upon him).

So, fake Sheik, your education is complete.  It is time to graduate...Wink
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2014 at 3:54pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

So, we can see that Sheik Ron never actually bothered to read Yusuf Ali's commentary.

No, I've never seen that commentary.  I was quoting the footnote in my own hard copy of the Quran, The Meaning of the Glorious Qur'an by Abdullah Yusuf Ali (third edition, 1938), a gift from my father-in-law.  I quoted the entire footnote except for a reference to another footnote about the Sabians.

Can you tell me who actually wrote the text you linked to?  It is evidently based on the Yusuf Ali translation, but it doesn't name the author or give the publication date.  It's also odd that the file name of the PDF doesn't match the title page (the "Glorious" Qur'an, versus the "Noble" Qur'an).

I'm assuming it's a later edition, in which Ali noticed the contradiction and tried to explain it away -- but it just won't work.  Like you, he wants to add stuff to the verses that simply isn't there.  Verse 5:69 is straightforward: righteous Jews and Christians shall have no fear or grief in the Hereafter.  That's what it says.  It doesn't say that they have to believe in Muhammad (which would be silly because Christians and Jews by definition don't believe in Muhammad); and it isn't limited to the period prior to Muhammad.  You can make up whatever you want, but it's not in the Quran.

Edited by Ron Webb - 26 July 2014 at 3:54pm
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2014 at 9:17pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by islamispeace

So, we can see that Sheik Ron never actually bothered to read Yusuf Ali's commentary.

No, I've never seen that commentary.  I was quoting the footnote in my own hard copy of the Quran, The Meaning of the Glorious Qur'an by Abdullah Yusuf Ali (third edition, 1938), a gift from my father-in-law.  I quoted the entire footnote except for a reference to another footnote about the Sabians.

Can you tell me who actually wrote the text you linked to?  It is evidently based on the Yusuf Ali translation, but it doesn't name the author or give the publication date.  It's also odd that the file name of the PDF doesn't match the title page (the "Glorious" Qur'an, versus the "Noble" Qur'an).

I'm assuming it's a later edition, in which Ali noticed the contradiction and tried to explain it away -- but it just won't work.  Like you, he wants to add stuff to the verses that simply isn't there.  Verse 5:69 is straightforward: righteous Jews and Christians shall have no fear or grief in the Hereafter.  That's what it says.  It doesn't say that they have to believe in Muhammad (which would be silly because Christians and Jews by definition don't believe in Muhammad); and it isn't limited to the period prior to Muhammad.  You can make up whatever you want, but it's not in the Quran.


So the fake Sheik thinks he knows better than Muslims!  That will be the day!  Maybe when Hell freezes over...

In any case, even if the fake Sheik wants to disregard the Yusuf Ali commentary, the fact still remains that the context of Surah 5:69 is very clear.  It refers to the deviant beliefs of Jews and Christians in verses before and after verse 69.  In fact, the Quran even states in verse 65 that had the "People of the Book" (i.e. Jews and Christians) had believed and been righteous, then Allah (swt) would have forgiven them:

"If only the People of the Book had believed and been righteous, We should indeed have blotted out their iniquities and admitted them to gardens of bliss."

What did the "People of the Book" have to believe in order to achieve salvation???  Islam!!!  Ding, ding, ding!  This is the context of verse 69 (which also applies to Surah 2:62), which charlatans and pseudo-scholars like to conveniently ignore!  ClapClapClap
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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