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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2014 at 11:36am
Greetings islamispeace,

Br. Zainool has shared this video in which it talks about how Muhammad when he made mistakes it was for the purpose of teaching... of learning...
listen from the 29 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQjzErJlpJ0&list=PL9821CA747E7E0674

asalaam,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 09 July 2014 at 3:55pm
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Blessed be God forever
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2014 at 3:55pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings Abu Loren,So, it turns out that I have read most of Samuel.  History just isn't my forte, so I simply don't retain much of it without a refresher.I wonder how much of Samuel have you read.  Have you read about all the conflicts with the Phillistines?Re-reading about David, his story struck me as oddly similar to Muhammad's story... of taking another man's wife to be his own...anyway... about the taking of the child...what is possibly more painful than to lose a child... to lose his own life would not have redeemed David in anyway, but the pain of losing his child brought him to repentance didn't it?  Also, this is the child that was ill conceived to begin with... conceived in adultery...does anything good come from conceiving a child against God's wishes... look at Hagar and Ishmael, and how they were cast off...and as a final note; I believe it is the qur'an that says; 'and allah does what he wills to do'I don't try to explain history... I simply try to learn the lessons that are in it.  If we do not learn from history then we are doomed to keep repeating the same mistakes... which is what the human race has been doing for thousands of years.The Biblical stories illustrate how the transgressions of the fathers are visited on the sons for generations...  because sin taints relationships and the fruits of those relationships are corruptedit was true of the sons of Adam and Eve, when Cain killed his brother Abelit was true of the favoritism shown by parents that caused a deeper rivalry between the brothers Jacob and Esau, and then Jacob's later favoritism towards his son Joseph did the same... I believe it is this, that the stories are meant to illustrate, to teach, and to learn from.asalaam.<span id="en-NIV-29870">' useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training '  [IMG>http://www.islamicity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" /></span>

And why is this directed to me?

Greetings Abu Loren,

Yes, you are correct, that was meant to be a reply to islamispeace.
I will correct.

asalaam,
Caringheart
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2014 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

You still cannot admit that your question was absurd from the start.  It's not my fault that you were not clear and concise in asking your question!

I think "why would anyone believe him?" is fairly concise.  You, on the other hand, seem to need an ever-increasing amount of text to answer a question that you consider "absurd".  Honestly, this is getting out of control.

LOL Well, well, well...Dr. Ron wants to offer a diagnosis?

Of course not.  I'm just pointing out that one can have auditory hallucinations and still be perfectly competent and otherwise rational: "Patients also present with a lack of symptoms commonly found in other mental disorders similar to paraphrenia. There is no significant deterioration of intellect, personality, or habits and patients often remain clean and mostly self-sufficient. Patients also remain oriented well in time and space."

And perhaps you just cannot admit that your crackpot theories don't work.  Perhaps you are afraid of the truth.  Perhaps this and perhaps that.  Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps...

Yes, perhaps.  I'm not trying to prove anything.  I'm just pointing out that your "crackpot theory" is equally unproven, and quite a bit less likely a priori (i.e, just considering the statistical frequency of occurrences).

LOL I was referring to his literal miracles such as providing water for his followers when there was none.

But Muhammad was just a man.  He had no power to perform miracles, as the Quran makes clear:
"Those who disbelieve say: If only some portent were sent down upon him from his Lord! Thou art a warner only, and for every folk a guide." (13:7)
So if you're claiming that Muhammad had divine powers, IMHO you are dangerously close to shirk.

Um, I think if you wanted to sell a product, you would take advantage of current trends.  You wouldn't make the product hard to swallow.  If I wanted to come out with an alternative to Coke or Pepsi, I wouldn't make something that tastes awful.  Rather, I would try to offer a similar tasting product, but perhaps for less money.

Yes, "less money" would be one way of differentiating yourself.

Similarly, if Muhammad (peace be upon him) wanted to pretend that he was the recipient of a divine message, he would have kept pagan sensitivities in mind, to make it easier for them to believe him.  He wouldn't have decided to attack their beliefs and criticize their materialism.

You're aware, I assume, that Allah was one of the gods worshipped by the pagans - the chief god in their pantheon, the creator god.  All Muhammad did was to eliminate all the lesser gods, the "partners" to God.

Now use your head, Ron.  Which scenario would have been more advantageous for a supposed impostor:
A.  Accept the lucrative offer from the powerful elites and risk facing the wrath of his poor and defenseless followers,
OR
B.  Reject the lucrative offer from the powerful elites and risk facing their wrath.
Which scenario, do you think, provided the most security for Muhammad (peace be upon him)?  Que the Jeopardy music...

I already answered that.  Clearly B, because his followers were in a better position to kill him -- and more likely to do so, having been instructed by Muhammad himself that "Whoever changes his religion, kill him."  And because being God's Prophet has certain privileges that no one else could offer him, as I said.

No, Ron.  Your absurd theories are not "more plausible".  Just because you don't believe in the supernatural does not make your laughable theories more "plausible".  Your theories, when analyzed with the evidence, are implausible.  I don't understand why you would so easily accept the most nonsensical arguments, unless you simply believe them because you want to believe.  Eh?

What makes my theories more plausible is that we have many, many real-world examples of people confusing dreams or hallucinations with reality, using claims of divine authority for personal ambition, and so on; whereas how many real-world examples of authentic encounters with God or His angels do we have?  Well, only a handful at best, and none that are verifiable.

Besides, even if Muhammad had an authentic supernatural experience, it is at least as likely that he was talking with Satan, or with some false demigod playing a prank.  Why would anyone assume that the message was from God, simply because it said it was from God?

First of all, as usual, you completely ignored my refutation of your suggestion that Muhammad's motive was to gain more wives.  Polygamy was an accepted practice in Arabia and it would make no sense to suggest that Muhammad (peace be upon him) had to claim to be the recipient of a divine revelation in order to gain more wives!  In the same way, if he had wanted concubines, he could have gotten them some other way.  Claiming divine revelation was not needed to acquire concubines.

Do you really think he would have had that many wives if he had remained simply a successful trader?

Second, in his life, he only had at most two concubines (and that is a matter of disagreement).  Some scholars are of the view that Mariyah the Copt became his wife after she gave birth to their son, Ibrahim, who sadly died in infancy.

Does it really change anything if she became his wife after she had his son?  And can a slave who has already been impregnated by her master truly be said to freely consent to marriage?  Anyway, how many successful merchants receive gifts of beautiful slave girls from Egyptian rulers?  That was my point.

As far as whether a "poor man" can "support multiple wives", the fact is that Muhammad's poverty was a point of contention among some of his wives.

Not his poverty, but his parsimony.  They wouldn't have complained if they knew he couldn't afford to treat them better; but as implied by the verses (33:28-29) you quoted, he apparently could afford to set all of them free "in a handsome manner", so he was not poor.

So, if Muhammad (peace be upon him) had decided to forge the revelation to give himself the benefit of having more than 4 wives, and if the motive was purely for sexual benefits, then why did he mostly marry widows and elderly women?  One of his wives, Sawdah (may Allah be pleased with her) was an elderly widow who, as Aslan describes her, was "long past the age of marriage".

Here is a list of the ages of Muhammad (M) and each of his wives (W) at the time they were married, along with the difference (D) in their ages.  The data is obtained from http://quransearchonline.com/Home/Biography.asp .

(M) (W) (D)   Name

25  40? -15?  Khadijah
50  50? 0?    Sawda
54  9   45    Aisha
55  19  36    Hafsa
55  30  25    Zaynab bint Khuzayma
56  27  29    Hind
57  30  27    Zaynab bint Jahsh
57  20  37    Juwairiyah
58  36  22    Ramla
59  17  42    Safiyah
59  26  33    Maymunah


His first wife, Khadijah, is given as fifteen years older than Muhammad, although other authorities say she was only four years older.
Sawdah, whom you mentioned, is given as the same age as Muhammad.  That is extremely unlikely -- it would mean she was 104 at the time of her death in 674.  She must have been at least a few years younger.

Aside from those first two, the average age is about 24.  The average difference in ages between Muhammad and each wife is about 33 years; and the minimum difference is 22 (Ramla).  Except for Khadijah and Sawda, they were all young enough to be his daughters, and in many instances young enough to be his granddaughters.  Widows they may have been, but elderly?  Not hardly.

Moreover, what ignoramuses such as yourself don't realize, which is no surprise, is that a later revelation actually did command Muhammad (peace be upon him) to not anymore women:

"It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens): and Allah doth watch over all things" (Surah Al-Ahzab, 33:52).

Well, he was nearly sixty and had had eleven wives already, plus a number of concubines and female slaves.  One might wonder why he even needed a special revelation in the Quran to tell him the obvious fact that enough was enough.

Edited by Ron Webb - 09 July 2014 at 5:05pm
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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fatima
 
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Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2014 at 4:57am
Bismillah irrahman irrahim
Ayah 52 of surah ahzab is revealed regarding a specific matter so no matter which side u r, try not to explain ur views with putting an ayah at the end unless u truely know it.
All of the ummahatul mauminin used to do their own chores and they had food only to have one full meal during each day. So after battle of confederates and then dealing with banu quraidha when other muslims were given wordly facilities, the wives of the Prophet saw asked for these things. This made Sayyidina Muhammad saw upset and he decided to stay away from all of his wives for a month. In this time a rumour went round that maybe Sayyidina Muhammad saw was divorcing his wives ra. But then Sayyidina Muhammad saw put an option infront of all of them, this world or the life with the Prophet saw and they all chose Sayyidina Muhammad saw. Now thats why it has been said that as they chose u then u dont need to divorce them and marry new women.
By the way for people who say its not the word of Allah subhanahu wataala, Sayyidina Muhammad saw was making life quite hard for himself saying only surah ahzab but then again who amongst u has truely read any part of Holy Quran to understand.

Edited by fatima - 10 July 2014 at 4:58am
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2014 at 5:36am
Originally posted by fatima

Bismillah irrahman irrahim
Ayah 52 of surah ahzab is revealed regarding a specific matter so no matter which side u r, try not to explain ur views with putting an ayah at the end unless u truely know it.
All of the ummahatul mauminin used to do their own chores and they had food only to have one full meal during each day. So after battle of confederates and then dealing with banu quraidha when other muslims were given wordly facilities, the wives of the Prophet saw asked for these things. This made Sayyidina Muhammad saw upset and he decided to stay away from all of his wives for a month. In this time a rumour went round that maybe Sayyidina Muhammad saw was divorcing his wives ra. But then Sayyidina Muhammad saw put an option infront of all of them, this world or the life with the Prophet saw and they all chose Sayyidina Muhammad saw. Now thats why it has been said that as they chose u then u dont need to divorce them and marry new women.
By the way for people who say its not the word of Allah subhanahu wataala, Sayyidina Muhammad saw was making life quite hard for himself saying only surah ahzab but then again who amongst u has truely read any part of Holy Quran to understand.
Hence the folly of debating with eediots. Ron Webb has admitted elsewhere that he only read parts of the Qur'an so is it worth debating with a person who has absolutely no knowledge watsoever of Islam or the Qur'an? He gets all of his information from the internet which makes him look like a scholar.
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2014 at 9:37am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings islamispeace,

So, it turns out that I have read most of Samuel.  History just isn't my forte, so I simply don't retain much of it without a refresher.
I wonder how much of Samuel have you read.  Have you read about all the conflicts with the Phillistines?
Re-reading about David, his story struck me as oddly similar to Muhammad's story... of taking another man's wife to be his own...
anyway... about the taking of the child...
what is possibly more painful than to lose a child... to lose his own life would not have redeemed David in anyway, but the pain of losing his child brought him to repentance didn't it?  Also, this is the child that was ill conceived to begin with... conceived in adultery...
does anything good come from conceiving a child against God's wishes... look at Hagar and Ishmael, and how they were cast off...

and as a final note;
I believe it is the qur'an that says; 'and allah does what he wills to do'

I don't try to explain history... I simply try to learn the lessons that are in it.  If we do not learn from history then we are doomed to keep repeating the same mistakes... which is what the human race has been doing for thousands of years.

The Biblical stories illustrate how the transgressions of the fathers are visited on the sons for generations...  because sin taints relationships and the fruits of those relationships are corrupted
it was true of the sons of Adam and Eve, when Cain killed his brother Abel
it was true of the favoritism shown by parents that caused a deeper rivalry between the brothers Jacob and Esau,
and then Jacob's later favoritism towards his son Joseph did the same...
I believe it is this, that the stories are meant to illustrate, to teach, and to learn from.

asalaam.

' useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training '  Smile


Why am I not surprised at your response? Ermm

It reeks of special pleading and the typical excuse-making that I have come to expect from Christian apologists. 

First, let us look at your pathetic excuse-making for plain injustice of killing David's son as a punishment of David.  As already mentioned, the law required the death penalty for adultery.  David got a pass on that.  Instead, God decided to kill his son, a clear violation of the law.  So, in this one incident, there were two clear violations of the law!

Second, your ridiculous comment that the child was "ill-conceived to begin with..." just illustrates once more the absurdity of the Bible and the sickening logic of Christian apologists such as yourself.  What had the child done to deserve death?  Even if he was "ill-conceived", that was not his fault, but the fault of his parents.  What makes this story (and your excuse-making) even more egregious is the fact that right after the death of the child, David was allowed to go back to Bathsheba (who was also grieving) and impregnate her again, the result being Solomon.  What had changed?  Did David's "repentance" somehow change the fact that Bathsheba was not his wife to begin with?  Did it change the fact that David had Uriah murdered to get him out of the way?  How was Solomon also not "ill-conceived"? 

Third, your attempted quoting of the Quran is out of place.  You have no business quoting from the Quran.  You don't even know your own "scripture", so what business do you have quoting from the Quran?  The fact is that while Allah (swt) does as He wills, the Quran also states that He is just and fair.  It also states that each person is responsible for his/her own sins and that children are born pure and not "ill-conceived".  This is divine justice.  To hold a child responsible for being "ill-conceived" is absolutely evil, which is why the Biblical story is pure fiction.  It is a vicious lie against Allah and against the noble prophet David (peace be upon him).

Your excuses are pathetic but typical.  Any reasonable person would be shocked and appalled at the severe miscarriage of justice illustrated in the story of David and Bathsheba.  There is nothing in this story that can be used  "for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training".  All it would show is that a king was spared death while anyone else would have been stoned to death and that an innocent child was killed for the sins of his father, a clear violation of Jewish law.  The contradictions and inconsistencies would serve as ample proof to a reasonable mind that the story is pure baloney.

And by the way, David also got a pass in being allowed to have multiple wives and concubines...a "special dispensation" from God, to use your words.  You can close your eyes to these facts all you want, but your hypocrisy is on display for all to see. Shocked


Edited by islamispeace - 10 July 2014 at 9:41am
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2014 at 11:36am
Originally posted by islamispeace

  injustice of killing David's son as a punishment of David.  As already mentioned, the law required the death penalty for adultery.  David got a pass on that.  Instead, God decided to kill his son, a clear violation of the law.  So, in this one incident, there were two clear violations of the law!

Second, your ridiculous comment that the child was "ill-conceived to begin with..." just illustrates once more the absurdity of the Bible and the sickening logic of Christian apologists such as yourself.  What had the child done to deserve death? 


Greetings islamispeace,

Isn't it your qur'an that confirms; 'and allah does what he wills to do'
Are you not familiar with the story of Moses and Pharaoh?  or does Islam have a different telling of the story?
Originally posted by islamispeace


Even if he was "ill-conceived", that was not his fault, but the fault of his parents.  What makes this story (and your excuse-making) even more egregious is the fact that right after the death of the child, David was allowed to go back to Bathsheba (who was also grieving) and impregnate her again, the result being Solomon.  What had changed?  Did David's "repentance" somehow change the fact that Bathsheba was not his wife to begin with?  Did it change the fact that David had Uriah murdered to get him out of the way?  How was Solomon also not "ill-conceived"? 


David had made Bathsheba his wife when Solomon was conceived.

24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the Lord loved him.

Originally posted by islamispeace


Third, your attempted quoting of the Quran is out of place.  You have no business quoting from the Quran.  You don't even know your own "scripture", so what business do you have quoting from the Quran?  The fact is that while Allah (swt) does as He wills, the Quran also states that He is just and fair.  It also states that each person is responsible for his/her own sins

I am simply stating a thing that I have read from qur'an.
Yes, sometimes God of the old testament, and Allah, do seem evil.
Isn't it in your own scriptures that it says; that often the Creator will do a thing that is good for you even though you do not understand or like it?
In the Biblical scriptures Job is rebuked by God Himself saying to him... 'Who are you... Do you have the mind of God, to know and understand all that He does.'
Again what is the story of Moses and Pharaoh?
Originally posted by islamispeace


and that children are born pure and not "ill-conceived"


If children are 'born pure and not ill-conceived', then why does the Creator require marriage?
Originally posted by islamispeace


 Any reasonable person would be shocked and appalled at the severe miscarriage of justice illustrated in the story of David and Bathsheba. 


I am shocked and appalled at the story of David and Bathsheba, and many other stories of the old testament(which are history, and useful for teaching)... even some of the things in the new testament shock and appall me...
 and I freely admit that I do not understand the mind of God and all that He allows.  I accept that the Creator knows something that I do not... that He is able to look at the whole picture where I see only part...

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

'the Creator does a thing good for you even though you may not like or understand it'

Originally posted by islamispeace


There is nothing in this story that can be used  "for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training". 


The lesson is in this:

22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

David was brought to his knees in repentance before God.  He also accepted God's will in the matter... he did not again turn away from God.

asalaam,

Caringheart



Edited by Caringheart - 10 July 2014 at 8:24pm
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 10 July 2014 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Hence the folly of debating with eediots. Ron Webb has admitted elsewhere that he only read parts of the Qur'an so is it worth debating with a person who has absolutely no knowledge watsoever of Islam or the Qur'an? He gets all of his information from the internet which makes him look like a scholar.

No, I'm certainly not a Quranic scholar.  I have read parts of the Quran, just as I have read parts of many other scriptures.  I see no reason to study it in any greater detail than the others, unless someone can answer my question in the opening post.  Would you care to explain to me why should I believe that this document, which is so self-serving to Muhammad's own interests, is actually the words of Allah?
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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