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Message Icon Topic: Why would anyone believe him? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2014 at 5:27pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

[/QUOTE]
Greetings islamispeace,

Key words to note:
' useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training '

As far as David and his adultery goes... someone would have to have accused him, wouldn't they?  and as far as I know no one ever did... it is not written that he was ever accused... so I have to assume that the facts were written after his death.

asalaam.

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Blessed be God forever
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2014 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

You have failed to provide any proof that he had "access to so much wealth". 

Greetings islamispeace,

I guess you missed my post on the matter of wealth.
asalaam. Smile
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2014 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

  God killed David's son for David's sin.

Hello islamispeace,

Can you please share what scripture you are referring to?

Shukran and salaam.
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 08 July 2014 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Key words to note:
' useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training '


You completely ignored Proverbs 30:5 and the rest of Paul's statement.  If the "word of God is flawless" and all "scripture is God-breathed", then there is no possibility of mistakes or exaggeration in the text.  Tell me.  What exactly was the point of "exaggerating" how many wives and concubines David and Solomon had?  How was that "useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training"?  Wouldn't it have been better to just mention the correct number rather than inflating it?  Clearly, either both had many wives and concubines, or they didn't.  So either the Bible is wrong, or it severely overestimated the exact number.

Originally posted by Caringheart

As far as David and his adultery goes... someone would have to have accused him, wouldn't they?  and as far as I know no one ever did... it is not written that he was ever accused... so I have to assume that the facts were written after his death.


So wait, are you saying that he didn't commit adultery and that the story is a later addition?

In any case, David was directly accused of adultery by Nathan, and he confessed to it.  Also, according to the account, when David first saw Bathsheba, he sent his men to inquire about her.  They had told him who she was, and who her husband was.  He then told his men to bring Bathsheba to him, after which he committed adultery with her.  So, in fact, there were witnesses.  They would have known exactly what David was trying to do.  He hadn't brought her to him to play checkers.

Oh and by the way, according to the law, a king was not allowed to have many wives.  I bring this up because of your claim that David and Solomon had not been given "special dispensations" from God.  Deuteronomy 17:17 states that the king:

"...must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold."


If the king of Israel was not allowed to take "many wives", then why were David and Solomon allowed to have as many wives as they had?

Originally posted by Caringheart

I guess you missed my post on the matter of wealth.


LOL I don't know what's funnier, the post you are referring to or the fact that you think that you actually "proved" something.  All you did was more mindless theorizing, a la Ron, with no proof, all in an attempt to satisfy your ego and prejudices.  I have refuted the crackpot theories that have been proposed on this thread.  You ignore the evidence and just make up your own theories.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Can you please share what scripture you are referring to?
    

Well, what are you asking me for?!  Haven't you read your Bible?!  Isn't it your "scripture"?! Shocked 

No, I am going to tell you what "scripture" I am referring to in regard to the death of David's son.  You should already know it, since it is your "scripture".  But I will give you a hint:

Sam x 2 + 12...   

It shouldn't be too hard to figure out!

Walaikum as-salaam!


Edited by islamispeace - 08 July 2014 at 3:31pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 08 July 2014 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Caringheart

Key words to note:
' useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training '


You completely ignored Proverbs 30:5 and the rest of Paul's statement.  If the "word of God is flawless" and all "scripture is God-breathed", then there is no possibility of mistakes or exaggeration in the text.  Tell me.  What exactly was the point of "exaggerating" how many wives and concubines David and Solomon had?  How was that "useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training"?  Wouldn't it have been better to just mention the correct number rather than inflating it?  Clearly, either both had many wives and concubines, or they didn't.  So either the Bible is wrong, or it severely overestimated the exact number.

Originally posted by Caringheart

As far as David and his adultery goes... someone would have to have accused him, wouldn't they?  and as far as I know no one ever did... it is not written that he was ever accused... so I have to assume that the facts were written after his death.


So wait, are you saying that he didn't commit adultery and that the story is a later addition?

In any case, David was directly accused of adultery by Nathan, and he confessed to it.  Also, according to the account, when David first saw Bathsheba, he sent his men to inquire about her.  They had told him who she was, and who her husband was.  He then told his men to bring Bathsheba to him, after which he committed adultery with her.  So, in fact, there were witnesses.  They would have known exactly what David was trying to do.  He hadn't brought her to him to play checkers.

Oh and by the way, according to the law, a king was not allowed to have many wives.  I bring this up because of your claim that David and Solomon had not been given "special dispensations" from God.  Deuteronomy 17:17 states that the king:

"...must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold."


If the king of Israel was not allowed to take "many wives", then why were David and Solomon allowed to have as many wives as they had?

Greetings islamispeace,

My reaction to this is, I truly don't know.  There is much that I do not understand about the old testament.  It would be better to speak with a Jewish person about it.  For me, the old testament is a history.  I do not attempt to explain why things were as they were.  It is a history, just as there is much contradictory evidence in the history of Muhammad.
I only know that it is useful for teaching... how to behave... how not to behave...
and that it reveals the message to come after... the message that is in Yshwe. 
I follow Yshwe.

I wasn't saying that David didn't commit adultery, but the story rather illustrates how men of power have always gotten away with being 'above the law'... on this earth, and in this life... don't they?  No one would probably have dared to accuse him during his time, but this does not mean that people didn't know the history, to write it down later... and the story is mainly to illustrate that God knew the truth... nothing is hidden from God... and to illustrate that it is God to whom we must answer.  (I have to assume that David was repentant, but I still have not looked up his story to read it.)

Originally posted by islamispeace


Originally posted by Caringheart

Can you please share what scripture you are referring to?
    

Well, what are you asking me for?!  Haven't you read your Bible?!  Isn't it your "scripture"?! Shocked 

No, I am going to tell you what "scripture" I am referring to in regard to the death of David's son.  You should already know it, since it is your "scripture".  But I will give you a hint:

Sam x 2 + 12...   

It shouldn't be too hard to figure out!

Walaikum as-salaam!

Ah, I have not read the books of Samuel in full.  I have read parts.  I haven't read Kings, or Chronicles, in full either.  I have come to an interest in history very late.  It always bored me to death, and sometimes still does.  It has to have relevance to the current world for me to be interested.
At any rate, I have my reading assignment for tonight. Smile
Your sharing with me the scripture is helpful/useful.  Thanks.  I will get to it now.

Peace and blessings,
Caringheart

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Blessed be God forever
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 08 July 2014 at 8:25pm
Greetings islamispeace,

So, it turns out that I have read most of Samuel.  History just isn't my forte, so I simply don't retain much of it without a refresher.
I wonder how much of Samuel have you read.  Have you read about all the conflicts with the Phillistines?
Re-reading about David, his story struck me as oddly similar to Muhammad's story... of taking another man's wife to be his own...
anyway... about the taking of the child...
what is possibly more painful than to lose a child... to lose his own life would not have redeemed David in anyway, but the pain of losing his child brought him to repentance didn't it?  Also, this is the child that was ill conceived to begin with... conceived in adultery...
does anything good come from conceiving a child against God's wishes... look at Hagar and Ishmael, and how they were cast off...

and as a final note;
I believe it is the qur'an that says; 'and allah does what he wills to do'

I don't try to explain history... I simply try to learn the lessons that are in it.  If we do not learn from history then we are doomed to keep repeating the same mistakes... which is what the human race has been doing for thousands of years.

The Biblical stories illustrate how the transgressions of the fathers are visited on the sons for generations...  because sin taints relationships and the fruits of those relationships are corrupted
it was true of the sons of Adam and Eve, when Cain killed his brother Abel
it was true of the favoritism shown by parents that caused a deeper rivalry between the brothers Jacob and Esau,
and then Jacob's later favoritism towards his son Joseph did the same...
I believe it is this, that the stories are meant to illustrate, to teach, and to learn from.

asalaam.

' useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training '  Smile


Edited by Caringheart - 09 July 2014 at 3:56pm
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2014 at 3:32am
Originally posted by Caringheart






Greetings Abu Loren,So, it turns out that I have read most of Samuel. History just isn't my forte, so I simply don't retain much of it without a refresher.I wonder how much of Samuel have you read. Have you read about all the conflicts with the Phillistines?Re-reading about David, his story struck me as oddly similar to Muhammad's story... of taking another man's wife to be his own...anyway... about the taking of the child...what is possibly more painful than to lose a child... to lose his own life would not have redeemed David in anyway, but the pain of losing his child brought him to repentance didn't it? Also, this is the child that was ill conceived to begin with... conceived in adultery...does anything good come from conceiving a child against God's wishes... look at Hagar and Ishmael, and how they were cast off...and as a final note; I believe it is the qur'an that says; 'and allah does what he wills to do'I don't try to explain history... I simply try to learn the lessons that are in it. If we do not learn from history then we are doomed to keep repeating the same mistakes... which is what the human race has been doing for thousands of years.The Biblical stories illustrate how the transgressions of the fathers are visited on the sons for generations... because sin taints relationships and the fruits of those relationships are corruptedit was true of the sons of Adam and Eve, when Cain killed his brother Abelit was true of the favoritism shown by parents that caused a deeper rivalry between the brothers Jacob and Esau, and then Jacob's later favoritism towards his son Joseph did the same... I believe it is this, that the stories are meant to illustrate, to teach, and to learn from.asalaam.<span id="en-NIV-29870">' useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training ' [IMG>http://www.islamicity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" /></span>





And why is this directed to me?

As you have, let me say this. The whole reason you don't know much about your own religion is well you are clueless. I thought that it was imperative for every Christian to know the Old Testament as well the New Testament. Otherwise how will you know what is what?
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 09 July 2014 at 3:36am
Why would anyone believe him?

Surat An-Naşr (The Divine Support)

Sahih International

When the victory of Allah has come and the conquest,
And you see the people entering into the religion of Allah in multitudes,
Then exalt [Him] with praise of your Lord and ask forgiveness of Him. Indeed, He is ever Accepting of repentance.
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