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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2014 at 9:36am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Ron Webb


Islam limits a man to four wives -- except for Muhammad, who received a special "revelation" just for his benefit, allowing him as many wives as he wanted.  How convenient.  Apparently being a Prophet does have its privileges after all.

Hey Ron,

I had to lol, when I got to that last line. LOL


But of course, Biblical figures like David and Solomon had it much better apparently!  I mean 300 concubines???  My goodness!  Solomon was swimming in women quite literally! Big%20smile

And as for David, well, sleeping with Bathsheba was just another perk for the king of Israel (as well as committing adultery and the murder of Uriah the Hittite).  The king even got away from being stoned to death as the law required.  Instead, God decided to kill his son.  Makes sense, doesn't it? Wink

But hey, being the ancestor of an alleged man-god must surely have its advantages! 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2014 at 11:01am
My few comments...

Yes, but David and Solomon didn't receive special dispensations from 'God' while the rest of the people were given a limiting law...

and truly I think anyone who reads the old testament stories has an understanding that these were quite likely exaggerations to make a point... a technique not uncommon among the Hebrews... the use of exaggeration.

As far as David's transgression with Bathsheba, it is included in the Hebrew writings as an illustration of sin.   David is convicted by the scriptures, not excused, of his sin.  I need to revisit the story to see if it tells of David's repentance or not.

asalaam.
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fatima
 
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Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2014 at 12:59pm
I was not going to post in this thread any more as it seems writing and point scoring for the sake of it and not the will of understanding. But brother islamispeace no matter what you trying to achieve with your arguments, you donot put a blame on a Prophet as of Allah subhanahu wataala.
As a muslim it is required of us to respect each and every single Prophet as in utmost esteem.
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2014 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by Caringheart

Yes, but David and Solomon didn't receive special dispensations from 'God' while the rest of the people were given a limiting law...


Oh really?  Who else during their respective reigns had as many wives and concubines?  Please, enlighten me!  Look in your Bible and let me know.

If David didn't receive "special dispensations from God", then why was he not stoned to death for adultery, as the law required?  Why was his son killed instead, in contradiction of the law?  That sounds like "special dispensations" to me!  LOL

Originally posted by Caringheart

and truly I think anyone who reads the old testament stories has an understanding that these were quite likely exaggerations to make a point... a technique not uncommon among the Hebrews... the use of exaggeration.


Wow, so the Bible is exaggerating when it states that Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines?  But if the Bible is exaggerating, then why would we rely on it for any information?  And why does Proverbs 30:5 state:

“Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.


And why did Paul say:

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:15-17)

If the Bible is full of exaggerations, then it cannot be the word of God. 

Originally posted by Caringheart

As far as David's transgression with Bathsheba, it is included in the Hebrew writings as an illustration of sin.   David is convicted by the scriptures, not excused, of his sin.  I need to revisit the story to see if it tells of David's repentance or not.


Except that David was not executed for adultery as the law required.  Instead, his innocent son was killed.  This is not justice.  God would not have made such a judgment.  It contradicts Biblical law and common sense.  How many other people were punished the way he was for adultery?  Why did the law say that the adulterer is to be stoned?
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2014 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by fatima

I was not going to post in this thread any more as it seems writing and point scoring for the sake of it and not the will of understanding. But brother islamispeace no matter what you trying to achieve with your arguments, you donot put a blame on a Prophet as of Allah subhanahu wataala.
As a muslim it is required of us to respect each and every single Prophet as in utmost esteem.


As-salaam alaikum.  Sister, you misunderstand.  I was not disrespecting Prophet Dawud or Suleiman (peace be upon them both).  I was responding to Caringheart's hypocrisy in attacking Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) for having multiple wives. 

The stories in the Bible are not true.  They are vicious lies.  You don't actually believe that Prophet Dawud committed adultery, do you?  I certainly don't.  That story in the Bible is a myth, invented by Jewish scribes.  It is an insult to the noble Prophet of Allah (swt). 

As far as how many wives they had, I don't know.  Even if Suleiman (peace be upon him) had hundreds of wives and concubines, it was a common practice in those days.  Certainly, as a head of state, Suleiman (peace be upon him) could have used his marriages to build alliances, just like Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) did.  My point was simply to out Caringheart in her place.  I think I have done that. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2014 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

The stories in the Bible are not true.  They are vicious lies.  You don't actually believe that Prophet Dawud committed adultery, do you?  I certainly don't.  That story in the Bible is a myth, invented by Jewish scribes.  It is an insult to the noble Prophet of Allah (swt).

You don't see a certain amount of circular reasoning going on here?  You reject any scripture that is inconsistent with your ideology -- but you also reject any ideology that is inconsistent with your scripture. Ermm
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2014 at 5:17pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Do I need to explain what "anyone" means?


You still cannot admit that your question was absurd from the start.  It's not my fault that you were not clear and concise in asking your question!

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Even truthful and trustworthy people can think they hear voices.  It's called paraphrenia.  It's rare, but it's still more frequent than actual voices from God or his angels, which I think even by your reckoning hasn't happened once in more than a thousand years.


LOL Well, well, well...Dr. Ron wants to offer a diagnosis?  Unfortunately, there are several problems which the good doctor overlooked.  According to the article:

"Onset of symptoms generally occurs later in life, near the age of 60.

Muhammad (peace be upon him) had his encounter at the age of 40, but paraphrenia generally effects older people. 

The article also states:

"The main symptoms of paraphrenia are paranoid delusions and hallucinations.[1][6] The delusions often involve the individual being the subject of persecution, although they can also be erotic, hypochondriacal, or grandiose in nature. The majority of hallucinations associated with paraphrenia are auditory, with 75% of patients reporting such an experience; however, visual, tactile, and olfactory hallucinations have also been reported.[1][6] The paranoia and hallucinations can combine in the form of “threatening or accusatory voices coming from neighbouring houses [and] are frequently reported by the patients as disturbing and undeserved"."

None of these symptoms can be applied to Muhammad (peace be upon him).  He never claimed to be hearing "voices" which were threatening in manner.  Nor did he hear voices coming from "neighbouring houses". 

So as you see, your crackpot diagnosis utterly fails.  The evidence simply does not line up.  What a shock...Shocked

Originally posted by Ron Webb

That may be so.  Perhaps they believed because they wanted to believe.  They didn't much care whether it was true or not.  Perhaps that's why you believe him too.


And perhaps you just cannot admit that your crackpot theories don't work.  Perhaps you are afraid of the truth.  Perhaps this and perhaps that.  Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps...

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Winning battles against superior forces is not exactly a miracle.


LOL I was referring to his literal miracles such as providing water for his followers when there was none. 

As far winning battles against superior forces, I would argue that one or two victories would not serve as a "miracle", but surely the fact that Muhammad (peace be upon him) ultimately emerged victorious despite incessant persecution and war from his enemies, is a miracle.  If Muhammad (peace be upon him) was not who he said he was, I see no reason why he would have succeeded.  Instead, I think his mission would have failed and he would have either been killed or forced to recant.  But that's not what happened.  Somehow, he succeeded.  Unbelievers such as your yourself are at a loss to explain it.  All you can do is say "maybe this" or "perhaps that", all in an effort to satisfy your ego. 

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Surely the God Hypothesis is the ultimate "crackpot theory".  It is by definition unprovable.  Your only "proof" is to argue that There Is No Alternative (TINA) explanation.  But there are plenty, and I keep offering them.  They are not "tangents".  They are refutations of your TINA argument.


What you have "offered" are merely conjectures with no proof.  In most cases, your *****ic theories can be easily refuted.  You seem to think that just because you can come up with crackpot theories, this is somehow proof that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was not a prophet.  It is based on your a priori assumption that God does not exist and there is no such thing as the supernatural.  Bravo!  Clap

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Because those gods already had their agents.  This is Marketing 101: you need to differentiate your product, carve out your own niche in the marketplace.  You can't win market share by being just like all the others.
 

Huh?! Confused

Um, I think if you wanted to sell a product, you would take advantage of current trends.  You wouldn't make the product hard to swallow.  If I wanted to come out with an alternative to Coke or Pepsi, I wouldn't make something that tastes awful.  Rather, I would try to offer a similar tasting product, but perhaps for less money. 

Similarly, if Muhammad (peace be upon him) wanted to pretend that he was the recipient of a divine message, he would have kept pagan sensitivities in mind, to make it easier for them to believe him.  He wouldn't have decided to attack their beliefs and criticize their materialism.  That makes a lot more sense than your "Marketing 101" nonsense.  It is obvious that you are just pulling ideas of thin air to satisfy your skeptical mindset.  Anything is preferable to your confused mind (no matter how nonsensical) than accepting that perhaps Muhammad (peace be upon him) was indeed who he said he was. 

Originally posted by Ron Webb

His companions were in the ideal position to kill him.  All it takes is a sword in the middle of the night.


Now, now...don't ignore what you cannot explain.  It is better to admit that you are wrong than to make up another crackpot theory.  As I said in my previous response:

Now use your head, Ron.  Which scenario would have been more advantageous for a supposed impostor: 

A.  Accept the lucrative offer from the powerful elites and risk facing the wrath of his poor and defenseless followers,

OR    

B.  Reject the lucrative offer from the powerful elites and risk facing their wrath.

Which scenario, do you think, provided the most security for Muhammad (peace be upon him)?  Que the Jeopardy music...

Originally posted by Ron Webb

I'm not sure he even knew it was a lie.  He may have dreamed his encounters with Gabriel, and confused them with reality.  I don't know.  All I'm saying is that there are dozens of hypotheses that are much more plausible than yours.  I don't understand why you would so easily accept the least likely one.  Unless, as I said above, you believe simply because you want to believe.


So now he "dreamed" it, huh? 

No, Ron.  Your absurd theories are not "more plausible".  Just because you don't believe in the supernatural does not make your laughable theories more "plausible".  Your theories, when analyzed with the evidence, are implausible.  I don't understand why you would so easily accept the most nonsensical arguments, unless you simply believe them because you want to believe.  Eh? Wink

Originally posted by Ron Webb

In the first place, the concubines were his property, which refutes your claim that when he died he had "only a white mule, his swords and some land."  But more importantly, the main limiting factor in the number of wives you can maintain is wealth.  A poor man cannot support multiple wives.


LOL You are such an ignoramus.  It's amazing how fools who have no idea what the hell they are talking about can make themselves out to be experts and convince themselves of their inaccurate claims.

First of all, as usual, you completely ignored my refutation of your suggestion that Muhammad's motive was to gain more wives.  Polygamy was an accepted practice in Arabia and it would make no sense to suggest that Muhammad (peace be upon him) had to claim to be the recipient of a divine revelation in order to gain more wives!  LOL  In the same way, if he had wanted concubines, he could have gotten them some other way.  Claiming divine revelation was not needed to acquire concubines. 

Second, in his life, he only had at most two concubines (and that is a matter of disagreement).  Some scholars are of the view that Mariyah the Copt became his wife after she gave birth to their son, Ibrahim, who sadly died in infancy.  There is also disagreement over whether Rayhana bint Zayd eventually became his wife or remained his concubine.  It is likely that he married them for the purpose of forging political alliances.  As Reza Aslan states:

"His marriage to Rayhana, a Jew, linked him with the Jewish tribe of Bani Qurayza, while his marriage to Mariyah, a Christian and a Copt, created a significant political alliance with the Christian ruler of Egypt." ("No God but God", p. 64).

As far as whether a "poor man" can "support multiple wives", the fact is that Muhammad's poverty was a point of contention among some of his wives.  That is why the following verses were revealed:

"O Prophet! Say to thy Consorts: "If it be that ye desire the life of this World, and its glitter,- then come! I will provide for your enjoyment and set you free in a handsome manner.  But if ye seek Allah and His Messenger, and the Home of the Hereafter, verily Allah has prepared for the well-doers amongst you a great reward" (Surah Al-Ahzab, 33:28-29) 

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Islam limits a man to four wives -- except for Muhammad, who received a special "revelation" just for his benefit, allowing him as many wives as he wanted.  How convenient.  Apparently being a Prophet does have its privileges after all.


Clap Brilliant, Ron.  Absolutely brilliant.  Oh but wait, you missed some important points.  How convenient. 

So, if Muhammad (peace be upon him) had decided to forge the revelation to give himself the benefit of having more than 4 wives, and if the motive was purely for sexual benefits, then why did he mostly marry widows and elderly women?  One of his wives, Sawdah (may Allah be pleased with her) was an elderly widow who, as Aslan describes her, was "long past the age of marriage". 

Moreover, what ignoramuses such as yourself don't realize, which is no surprise, is that a later revelation actually did command Muhammad (peace be upon him) to not anymore women:

"It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after this, nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens): and Allah doth watch over all things" (Surah Al-Ahzab, 33:52).

Notice that this is the same surah mentioned above, where Muhammad (peace be upon him) was instructed to offer his wives divorce if they desired worldly riches.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

I think you have it backwards.  It's only because he had access to so much wealth that he was able to give away those dates.  Had he been a poor man, he might have been inclined to keep the dates to feed himself and his eleven wives.


LOL I think your head in on backwards.  You have failed to provide any proof that he had "access to so much wealth".  All you have are your crackpot theories.  Everything you have been refuted, you changed gears and just posited another *****ic theory.  But where is the proof?  Oh right, there is none! 

According to Hazrat Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her), food was a luxury in the prophet's household.  This was part of his self-imposed poverty, which some of his wives were unhappy about and for which he offered to divorce them (they elected to stay with him, by the way). 

Originally posted by Ron Webb

They were initially poor, but after having raided enough caravans there would have been more than enough wealth to go around.


More mindless theorizing, with no proof.  For sure, as a result of the various battles and raids on the Meccans, there were spoils.  But if wealth was Muhammad's ultimate motive, then we have to return to the incident where he was offered the very things he allegedly wanted, but turned down, as the risk of his life. 

Moreover, if he was raiding these caravans for the purposes of looting, then one would think that he would have kept most of the spoils for himself, and wouldn't give most if it away in charity.  Yet, the evidence shows otherwise.  So there goes another one of your crackpot theories down the drain!  This must be getting frustrating for you! LOL

 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 07 July 2014 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by islamispeace

The stories in the Bible are not true.  They are vicious lies.  You don't actually believe that Prophet Dawud committed adultery, do you?  I certainly don't.  That story in the Bible is a myth, invented by Jewish scribes.  It is an insult to the noble Prophet of Allah (swt).

You don't see a certain amount of circular reasoning going on here?  You reject any scripture that is inconsistent with your ideology -- but you also reject any ideology that is inconsistent with your scripture. Ermm


Not quite.  I reject any "scripture" or "ideology" that is self-contradictory and logically absurd.  I use my common sense.  It is self-contradictory to claim that God states that children cannot be punished for their father's sins, yet also claim that God killed David's son for David's sin.  It is also self-contradictory to claim that a noble prophet committed adultery and murder and was spared the death penalty, as the law required.  You see, Ron?  Common sense...Big%20smile 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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