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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2014 at 7:18am
Originally posted by fatima

Why they believed him? Well if some1 has seen a person getting to the age of 40 right infront of them n only seen the good things from that person. If u have known that person only to be an honest and truthful man and an upright member of an high esteemed household.

Even such a person can be mistaken.  Even such a person can develop a mental or psychological issues at age 40.  Even such a person can have a change in personality.  These things may be unlikely, but they are still far more likely than anyone actually speaking to God.
 
Another factor of every religion, no matter how many u associate with God, all of them believe in 'ONE TRUE POWERFUL, THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING'.

Which is no reason to believe any one religion over another.

Not long back they themselves had seen Rab of kaaba saving this sacred house without any human help.

Sorry, I have no idea what you are referring to.

have u ever read Holy Quran? Any person reading Holy Quran without any bias would know its something different.

I have read the Quran -- not the whole thing, but enough to know what it is about.  I won't give you my opinion in detail, because I don't want to be unnecessarily offensive.  Let me just say that I found the Bhagavad Gita much more inspiring.

Have you read the Bible, the Bhagavad Gita, the Book of Mormon, the sayings of Confucius, the I Ching, the Tao Te Ching?  I have all these books and many more on my bookshelf, and have read much of them.  I wonder why you think the Quran is "something different".

He saw talked about sacial unjustice and told people that this wordly division is not what matters, He saw gave them a hope. He saw told them where and who u born does not matter as much as what u do with urself.

No doubt, but so did all the other great religious leaders.  It's still no reason to choose one over the others.

And yeah some other leaders mentioned did try to do somethings but they lacked in one way r other. In the book 100 most influential people, it is said that he was the only leader to achieve excellence on both wordly n religious fronts. Somebody who dint only preach equality but his prayer showed n put a master next to slave.

He also promoted slavery.  He captured and kept slaves himself.  He taught inequality of men and women.  He imposed horrendous punishments for minor offences.  He was a warlord who used intimidation ("convert or die") to spread his religion.  I won't go into details on any of this, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

I know people who choose not to believe him r there but his companions saw miracles with being around him.

Again, all religions and all religious leaders have various miracles associated with them.  Most of them are just made-up stories, mistaken observations or errors in transmission.  And if most of them are wrong, I see no reason to believe any of them.
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2014 at 11:20am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by islamispeace


As-salaam alaikum.  Brother, we should not get upset when unbelievers make st**id statements.  Rather, we should respond to them.  We cannot be too uptight.  Otherwise, they may get the impression that we don't have any answers.
With respect bro, this clown Ron Webb has been 'at it' for well over a year now. He just conterargues every point we make with nonsense and we shouldn't entertain clowns like him.
 
I agree with you that these kuffar have the right to make any statement that they wish however there is a limit. Once we know that they are out to mock us then we should stop engaging with that clown, in my humble opinion.
 
These jokers are here on forums like this for lurid entertainment only.


As-salaam alaikum brother.  Even so, I think we should not get upset.  Rather, we should respond to them and use humor while we are it.  These people might not want to listen, but what if someone else who is interested in Islam was reading these threads?  If they see that Muslims simply get upset and don't actually answer the false claims of the unbelievers, what will they think?  They might get the wrong idea and abandon their journey to Islam.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2014 at 12:08pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Yes, I know they believed him.  My question is, why?


That is not what you originally asked.  You asked why would "anyone" believe him?  As I and others have pointed out, many people did believe him.  So your question was absurd from the get-go. 

As to why they actually believed him, there are many reasons.  First of all, as sister Fatima pointed out, he was known to be a truthful and trustworthy person.  People saw no reason why he would have decided one day that he had been chosen by Allah (swt) to deliver His revelation to mankind.  Moreover, his message of social justice and fairness appealed to the weak and oppressed people in Arabian society.  That is why most of his early followers were among the poor.  Most of the elites rejected his message. 

Other reasons for why they believed are his miracles, his prophecies and of course his undeniable success against innumerable odds.  Logically speaking, there is no way he should have succeeded the way he did.  Unbelievers like you are at a loss to explain how he managed to defeat his enemies and become the most influential person in human history, despite having the odds piled up against him for most of his prophetic life. 

Originally posted by Ron Webb

No, I have no proof, but neither do you; and generally speaking when someone claims to hear God talking to them, the least likely possibility is that God is really talking to him.  So why in this case would anyone assume that the least likely possibility is the truth?
      
LOL I have plenty of proof.  You simply reject it by positing your unprovable crackpot theories.  Tell me how Muhammad (peace be upon him) was able to succeed like he did?  How was he able to defeat his enemies and start a global movement which transformed the world?  And why was he willing to undergo severe hardships in the process?  Try to answer the question with logic and reason.  No more of your "I don't know" and "Maybe this" or "Maybe that" nonsense. Wink

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Personally, I think he probably sincerely believed it was God's voice, at least at first.  But IMHO it would still be plausible, even if it was a pretense from the beginning.  Surely that was L. Ron Hubbard's motivation in starting Scientology.  By the way, he was already a successful writer, so by your logic what he did was absurd. But it worked out pretty well for him, I'd say.


First of all, your "humble opinions" are irrelevant to the discussion.  And by the way, Muhammad (peace be upon him) did not claim to hear "God's voice".  He claimed that the Angel Gabriel (as) appeared to him and brought the first ayats of the Quran, which was God's word.     

Second, it does not go unnoticed that, as usual, you didn't answer the question and instead went off on tangents.  What is your explanation for why a well-to-do and respected merchant would one day decide to make up a spiritual encounter, and then start a religious revolution and undergo severe hardships in the process, all in the name of that supposed made-up encounter?  If anything, he would have made up an encounter with one of the pagan gods and then pretend that he was that god's agent.  He would not have picked a fight with the ruling pagan elites but instead would have used their sensibilities to his advantage.  Why would he have decided to challenge the status quo instead?  Try to answer the question.  Don't go off on tangents again! Big%20smile

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Maybe because, as I said, if he had recanted, his followers might have killed him.  (That is what his own religion instructed, after all.)  Maybe because he still believed he was a true Prophet.  Maybe because the power and influence they were offering was nothing like what he already had as God's press agent.


LOL Again, no answers...just a whole bunch of "maybe this" and "maybe that" nonsense. 

The fact is that at the time this offer was made, Muhammad (peace be upon him) was in no position to reject it.  Most of his followers were poor and defenseless.  They were not in a position to kill him if he had recanted and accepted the pagans' offer.  And if he had rejected the offer, which he did, he would have known that the pagans would try to kill him. 

Now use your head, Ron.  Which scenario would have been more advantageous for a supposed impostor: 

A.  Accept the lucrative offer from the powerful elites and risk facing the wrath of his poor and defenseless followers,

OR    

B.  Reject the lucrative offer from the powerful elites and risk facing their wrath.

Which scenario, do you think, provided the most security for Muhammad (peace be upon him)?  Que the Jeopardy music...

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Maybe because he really thought that's what God wanted.  Maybe because it would help convince people like you of his sincerity.  Maybe because he didn't want the Prophet (of all people) to be accused of being lax.
 

And maybe you are just a tongue-tied unbeliever who is at a loss to explain Muhammad's sincerity, patience, personal sacrifice and ultimate success against immeasurable odds.  Maybe you are just afraid of the truth.  Maybe you just don't want to accept that you have been deceived.  Maybe this and maybe that.  Maybe, maybe, maybe...LOL

You have yet to explain why a supposed impostor would undergo severe hardships for something he knew to be false.  You have yet to explain why such a person would forgo even the basic comforts of life (let alone wealth beyond his wildest dreams) all for a lie.  What a shock...Wink

Originally posted by Ron Webb

I don't see why not.  Was Hitler crazy?  Lots of people thought so.  One of our own local historical notables, Louis Riel, also made competent decisions in battle, but he also (allegedly) talked to God.  For that matter, one of our prime ministers, William Lyon Mackenzie King, also had a lot of wacky spiritual experiences (including seances where he talked to his deceased dog), and yet he was a very competent leader.  It's not that surprising.
 

LOL None of these people were nearly as influential as Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him)!  Nor were any of them diagnosed with any psychiatric disorder (though there have been various theories about Hitler).  They were all competent people.  But which of them was as successful as Muhammad (peace be upon him)?  Which of them was willing to undergo hardships for his cause?  Hitler lived a luxurious lifestyle as ruler of Germany and it was only once the Allied armies were advancing on Berlin that he was forced to hide in bunkers.

Sorry Ron.  Try again!  What other crackpot theory do you have?

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Muhammad had a total of fifteen wives, as many as eleven at one time, plus several female slaves as concubines.  That in itself is a measure of wealth.  More to the point, why would he need a lot of tangible wealth?  As God's Prophet, who would/could refuse him anything he wanted?
 

LOL There you go again, showing how much of an illogical ignoramus you really are!  Polygamy was a common occurrence in Arabia and was an accepted practice.  Why would he need to invent a religion in order to get more wives when he could have done that from the start?     

As for your other crackpot theory, that he didn't need "tangible wealth" because he could simply ask for anything from his followers, the fact is that he didn't do that!  In fact, whenever he was given any gifts, food or anything else, he gave it away to others!  Here is a perfect example:

"Abu Huraira (Allah be pleased with him) reported that a person came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, I am undone. He (the Holy Prophet) said: What has brought about your ruin? He said: I have had intercourse with my wife during the month of Ramadan. Upon this he (the Holy prophet) said: Can you find a slave to set him free? He said: No.  He (the Holy Prophet again) said: Can you observe fast for two consecutive months? He said: No. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Can you provide food to sixty poor people?, He said: No. He then sat down and (in the meanwhile) there was brought to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) a basket which contained dates. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Give these (dates) in charity. He (the man) said: Am I to give to one who is poorer than I? There is no family poorer than mine between the two lava plains of Medina. The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) laughed so that his molar teeth became visible and said: Go and give it to your family to eat." (Sahih Muslim, Book 6, Number 2457)

So in this incident, the Prophet was given dates as a gift, and he gave it away to someone else in need.  If we go by your crackpot theory, he would have kept the dates for himself (especially since ample food was a luxury in those days) and simply pretend to the person that God had forgiven his sin.

Moreover, as I said before, most of Muhammad's followers were poor and downtrodden.  There were some who were wealthy, such as Abu Bakr (ra), but the vast majority were poor.  They did not have much to give to him, even if he had demanded anything from them, which he didn't. 

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Unless of course it turns out that Gautama Buddha or Guru Nanak or any of a hundred other religious leaders had the true religion?  Again, why choose Muhammad instead of all those others?


For all the reasons given above.  None of the people you have mentioned have had the kind of impact and influence on human history as Muhammad (peace be upon him).

You still yet have to offer a reasoned and logical explanation for why you believe that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was a supposed impostor!  Your foolishness and desperate attempts to go off on tangents whenever you can't answer a question are on display for all to see.  LOL   


Edited by islamispeace - 05 July 2014 at 12:15pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2014 at 1:54am
May Allah subhanahu wataala have mercy on u.
U c dear sir u r not even understanding the basic of our deen. We believe in all the prophets as before Sayyidina Muhammad saw. They were true n did speak to angels to recieve a message except Musa as who spoke to Allah Subhanahu wataala directly. All of them had miracles biggest of which the ability of Isa as to bring the dead back to life. All of the Prophets as came to a specific nation for a specific time. Sayyidina Muhammad saw came for the whole of the world and he saw is the last prophet. So there is no choosing of one over the other. Holy Quran is the latest and last version of Allah Subhanahu Wataala's instructions.
Now the so many others showing miracles after Sayyidina Muhammad saw, can I hear abiut them. I cant really explain something which I have no clue about.
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2014 at 3:19am
Now about Sayyidina Muhammad saw promoting slavery! Really! Are you kidding me? Slavery was common in thos days and islam brought a rule that slaves can fix a time period and amount with the master to be free. They will be free as soon as the contract is drawn and would pay instalments in the agreed time limit but would be free to do whatever with themselves in that time. Reforms like donot force the slaves for prostitution and get them married off to some1 were brought.
People make me laugh on this one, a poor lower status second class muslimah. So how would I be free? Getting almost naked on the big billboards or wearing less n sleeping around on hearing the rant of freedom and then being labeled a slut? No no maybe by mixing freely and giving every thing on a plate and then being abandoned on getting pregnant! Well even now in this free and equal society in city like london a woman is paid less than a man doing the same job. A sports woman is paid less playing same sport same event. WHY IS THERE THREE SETS FOR WOMEN TENNIS AND FIVE FOR MEN? Because we are differently structured, thats why. How convenient is it for this man made, man dominated and man ruled siciety to cry 'poor muslimah'. How convenient it for them when she is free, she wears what pleases their eyes, she gives them what THEY require without the burden of responsibility.
Now Allah subhanahu wataala has given both genders equal rights but different roles and responsibilities. Apart from a husband and wife where husband is given one degree above because he is made responsible for provision and protection. Another reason is administrative, to run a peaceful and smooth household, one has to take the role of decision making and Allah Subhanahu wataala gives it to the man. Allah Subhanahu wataala has absolute authority over everything and as muslims we donot ask why? But with time and science we are learning about the wisdom behind. It is recently been discovered that brain connectivity is different amongst female and male gender, in females parts of the brain are inter connected while in men they are not. This means when making a decision a man can totaly cut his emotions for the situation and people out but not a woman. This is her positive when she is a mother, her emotions are there for her kids and others and she forgives which bonds a family system.
I will explain your last point before the third as that needs more explaining. Convert or die, not really. As in the previous ummahs whenever a Messenger as came, the whole nation was destroyed on disbelief. So this is sunnah of our Supreme Lord. Now Sayyidina Muhammad saw came to the whole world generaly but specially to arabs. So the ruling after Makkah mukarrama was conquered was either accept islam or leave arab peninsula or ready to die. So Allah Subhanahu wataala did give them an option out of His rehma. This too was only for arabs at his saw's time as they had seen the whole message right infront of their own eyes and experienced it themselves.
Now lastly islamic punishments, two of the capital punishments for foresaking the deen and adultery were kept same as they were in previous ummah of Musa as. These punishments and all others are there as deterents. If you know you are going to be free again in next 7 years after killing r raping some innocent than be hanged, criminal mind is likely to do it.
Lastly I possed a question about Holy Quran that no one ever produced or could ever produce something like this. If you sincerely want to know then search scientific miracles of Holy Quran. These facts were there for past 1400 years and reality of them has only come to light within last century. How could a person describe exact stages of pregnancy 1400 years ago. How could some one say that sun, moon and earth are moving on their own pathway when it was recently discovered that even sun has movements. Why would Allah subhanahu wataala specifically say to those in refute of resurrection that He has ability to create the very top of the finger tips. What is so special about top of finger tips? In the last century we have learnt its the finger prints which are one thing different amongst identical twins. I can go on and on but that is not the purpose of Holy Quran so neither should it be mine. With time human race has developed so much in intellect that if you are sincere you know the truth when it is infront of you.
And you claim to have read some part of Holy Quran and still completely oblivious of what I meant by Lord saving Kaaba. If you want to refute, (I neither like this term nor agree with the concept because a wise person would want to know and learn about the truth with open heart) because I see the pattern and what is in the heart only our Creator knows, then I suggest you have better knowledge of our deen.

And to Allah subhanahu wataala we all will return

Edited by fatima - 06 July 2014 at 3:32am
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2014 at 3:35pm
 
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Yes, I know they believed him.  My question is, why?

That is not what you originally asked.  You asked why would "anyone" believe him?

Do I need to explain what "anyone" means?

As to why they actually believed him, there are many reasons.  First of all, as sister Fatima pointed out, he was known to be a truthful and trustworthy person.  People saw no reason why he would have decided one day that he had been chosen by Allah (swt) to deliver His revelation to mankind.

Even truthful and trustworthy people can think they hear voices.  It's called paraphrenia.  It's rare, but it's still more frequent than actual voices from God or his angels, which I think even by your reckoning hasn't happened once in more than a thousand years.

Moreover, his message of social justice and fairness appealed to the weak and oppressed people in Arabian society.  That is why most of his early followers were among the poor.  Most of the elites rejected his message.

That may be so.  Perhaps they believed because they wanted to believe.  They didn't much care whether it was true or not.  Perhaps that's why you believe him too.

Other reasons for why they believed are his miracles, his prophecies and of course his undeniable success against innumerable odds.  Logically speaking, there is no way he should have succeeded the way he did.  Unbelievers like you are at a loss to explain how he managed to defeat his enemies and become the most influential person in human history, despite having the odds piled up against him for most of his prophetic life.

Winning battles against superior forces is not exactly a miracle.

LOL I have plenty of proof.  You simply reject it by positing your unprovable crackpot theories.

Surely the God Hypothesis is the ultimate "crackpot theory".  It is by definition unprovable.  Your only "proof" is to argue that There Is No Alternative (TINA) explanation.  But there are plenty, and I keep offering them.  They are not "tangents".  They are refutations of your TINA argument.

What is your explanation for why a well-to-do and respected merchant would one day decide to make up a spiritual encounter, and then start a religious revolution and undergo severe hardships in the process, all in the name of that supposed made-up encounter?  If anything, he would have made up an encounter with one of the pagan gods and then pretend that he was that god's agent.  He would not have picked a fight with the ruling pagan elites but instead would have used their sensibilities to his advantage.  Why would he have decided to challenge the status quo instead?

Because those gods already had their agents.  This is Marketing 101: you need to differentiate your product, carve out your own niche in the marketplace.  You can't win market share by being just like all the others.

The fact is that at the time this offer was made, Muhammad (peace be upon him) was in no position to reject it.  Most of his followers were poor and defenseless.  They were not in a position to kill him if he had recanted and accepted the pagans' offer.  And if he had rejected the offer, which he did, he would have known that the pagans would try to kill him.

His companions were in the ideal position to kill him.  All it takes is a sword in the middle of the night.

You have yet to explain why a supposed impostor would undergo severe hardships for something he knew to be false.  You have yet to explain why such a person would forgo even the basic comforts of life (let alone wealth beyond his wildest dreams) all for a lie.

I'm not sure he even knew it was a lie.  He may have dreamed his encounters with Gabriel, and confused them with reality.  I don't know.  All I'm saying is that there are dozens of hypotheses that are much more plausible than yours.  I don't understand why you would so easily accept the least likely one.  Unless, as I said above, you believe simply because you want to believe.

LOL There you go again, showing how much of an illogical ignoramus you really are!  Polygamy was a common occurrence in Arabia and was an accepted practice.  Why would he need to invent a religion in order to get more wives when he could have done that from the start?

In the first place, the concubines were his property, which refutes your claim that when he died he had "only a white mule, his swords and some land."  But more importantly, the main limiting factor in the number of wives you can maintain is wealth.  A poor man cannot support multiple wives.

Islam limits a man to four wives -- except for Muhammad, who received a special "revelation" just for his benefit, allowing him as many wives as he wanted.  How convenient.  Apparently being a Prophet does have its privileges after all.

As for your other crackpot theory, that he didn't need "tangible wealth" because he could simply ask for anything from his followers, the fact is that he didn't do that!  In fact, whenever he was given any gifts, food or anything else, he gave it away to others!  Here is a perfect example:
...

So in this incident, the Prophet was given dates as a gift, and he gave it away to someone else in need.  If we go by your crackpot theory, he would have kept the dates for himself (especially since ample food was a luxury in those days) and simply pretend to the person that God had forgiven his sin.

I think you have it backwards.  It's only because he had access to so much wealth that he was able to give away those dates.  Had he been a poor man, he might have been inclined to keep the dates to feed himself and his eleven wives.

Moreover, as I said before, most of Muhammad's followers were poor and downtrodden.  There were some who were wealthy, such as Abu Bakr (ra), but the vast majority were poor.  They did not have much to give to him, even if he had demanded anything from them, which he didn't.

They were initially poor, but after having raided enough caravans there would have been more than enough wealth to go around.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2014 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb


Islam limits a man to four wives -- except for Muhammad, who received a special "revelation" just for his benefit, allowing him as many wives as he wanted.  How convenient.  Apparently being a Prophet does have its privileges after all.

Hey Ron,

I had to lol, when I got to that last line. LOL
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 06 July 2014 at 5:21pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb


I think you have it backwards.  It's only because he had access to so much wealth that he was able to give away those dates.  Had he been a poor man, he might have been inclined to keep the dates to feed himself and his eleven wives.


They were initially poor, but after having raided enough caravans there would have been more than enough wealth to go around.

I have to agree with you about the wealth.
Wealth is measured in many ways.
I want to say that at least Muhammad was not building palaces... but who knows... he had to house all those wives somehow, somewhere... and there had to be cooking facilities to feed them all... and I suppose servants to do the cooking, the washing, the cleaning (?)... I don't know...

I mean he was used to wealth from the time he was a boy, traveling with his uncle the merchant, wasn't he?  To the time he became wed to the wealthy Khadija... so he was used to wealth... kind of like how the politicians of our day are out of touch... the Clinton's think they are 'broke' with income in the millions...
Every one has their measure, and the stories of Muhammad may be a nice myth about someone that was raised to the level of prophet in the eyes of people who didn't know any better and only knew how to depend on leaders...
there were lots of myths about the Pharaoh's who were considered gods too...


Edited by Caringheart - 06 July 2014 at 5:27pm
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