Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Why would anyone believe him? Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 13 Next >>
Author Message
Ron Webb
Male Humanism
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 January 2008
Online Status: Online
Posts: 1786
Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2014 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by abuayisha

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Or maybe he was just crazy.

For someone so very adapt at mockery of religion, and displaying a proud embrace of rationalism, along with a heaping dose of hubris, what is to be gained by insulting our religion? You don't believe in our Prophet, ok fine, but to use such inflammatory language is truly unnecessary, and surely you're intelligent enough to know this.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I actually don't think Ron's comment was meant as a mockery or to be rude, but just a statement of one possible fact.

Exactly.  I'm not saying it's true, but you have to admit that it is a possibility to be considered, at least a priori.  Many people who claim to talk to God are crazy, after all.

Originally posted by abuayisha

Did you start this thread intending to use this type of language as dialogue? "Why would anyone believe him" was obviously a rhetorical question having no intent for discussion, but an opportunity for further insult and polarization.

It's not a rhetorical question.  I'd really like to know why you believe him.  And by the way, I see it as a unifying rather than a polarizing question.  It's one thing that all religions have in common: the decision to believe one set of religious tenets in preference to the many alternative faiths.  I ask the same question of every religious faith.

It's a simple question: why do you believe what you do?  I'm sorry if you find it offensive.  That's not how I intend it.
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2256
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2014 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Many people believed (the Christian version of) Jesus too.  And Buddha.  And Lao-Tzu.  And Joseph Smith.  And L. Ron Hubbard.  Why don't you believe any of them?


Now, now, don't change the subject.  You opened this thread, Ron.  You gave it the title "Why would anyone believe him?"  Well, people did believe him, Ron!  Your central question was absurd from the get-go! Do you acknowledge that?

Originally posted by Ron Webb

All of the above.  Or maybe he was just crazy.  I dunno, lots of people claim that God talks to them.  Should we believe all of them?


So you have no proof and no answers.  You're just throwing out all sorts of crackpot theories.  You know, you are a good candidate for the "Agnostic Code":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R66r_XMoDkk

Now, let's deal with your theories.  Was Muhammad (peace be upon him) motivated by power, wealth and influence?  The short answer is no.  Here is the long answer:

He was already a well-respected merchant and married to a well-off woman, Hazrat Khadijah (may Allah be pleased with her), by the time he received the revelation.  So, the idea that he decided one day that in order to get power, wealth and influence, he had to pretend like he received God's revelation is just absurd.  But in case you are still not convinced, let us consider that once he had made his message public and the pagan elites of Mecca had initially reacted with anger and at times violence, they became frustrated with his persistence and hence made him an offer which any man who was seeking power and wealth would have been crazy to turn down.  They offered him those things.  They offered him influence and power, if only he would stop preaching against their idols.  Yet, he refused their offer!  Why would he have done that if his goal was the very things the pagans had just offered him? 

Let's look at it another way.  If Muhammad (peace be upon him) was an impostor, then why did he go above and beyond in the practice of his religion, doing more than what he required of his followers?  For example, in the matter of fasting, it is well known that he fasted longer than his followers and that when his followers asked to be allowed to fast as long as he did, he did not allow them to do so.  Why did he do that?  Why would he have deliberately placed more difficulties on himself if he was indeed an impostor? 

For more, read the following: http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-6.htm 

As for your other crackpot theory, that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was "crazy", kindly enlighten us as to how a supposedly "crazy" person was able to so successfully change not just Arabia but the whole world?  If he was crazy, how was he able to make competent decisions in the heat of battle?  How was he able to negotiate peace treaties with various tribes?  How would a "crazy" person have accomplished so much? 

Originally posted by Ron Webb

For any or all of the aforementioned reasons.  Plus, once he started down that road, what choice did he have?  How you think he would have been treated if he had recanted?
 

LOL Well, for one thing, he could have accepted the Meccans offer in exchange for not preaching against their religion.  Having made his enemies desperate enough to give him all the things he wanted, why did he reject their offer?  Why did he choose to live a simple life, using only a leather bed?  Why did he deliberately do more religious acts than he required of his followers?  Why did he, when he died, have only a white mule, his swords and some land?  Imagine!  The most powerful man in Arabia had no wealth at the time he died?  Where did the wealth go?  Even the land he had left was given in charity. 

You see, Ron?  Your crackpot ideas are utterly ridiculous!  But don't worry.  You can still live in your own world and refuse to believe in Muhammad (peace be upon him).  No one cares!  But on the Day of Judgment, you might look back on these conversations and kick yourself! 


Edited by islamispeace - 01 July 2014 at 4:18pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2256
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2014 at 4:22pm
Originally posted by abuayisha

Originally posted by Ron Webb

  Or maybe he was just crazy. 


For someone so very adapt at mockery of religion, and displaying a proud embrace of rationalism, along with a heaping dose of hubris, what is to be gained by insulting our religion? You don't believe in our Prophet, ok fine, but to use such inflammatory language is truly unnecessary, and surely you're intelligent enough to know this. Did you start this thread intending to use this type of language as dialogue? "Why would anyone believe him" was obviously a rhetorical question having no intent for discussion, but an opportunity for further insult and polarization.


As-salaam alaikum.  Brother, we should not get upset when unbelievers make st**id statements.  Rather, we should respond to them.  We cannot be too uptight.  Otherwise, they may get the impression that we don't have any answers.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
Abu Loren
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 29 June 2012
Location: United Arab Emirates
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1164
Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 02 July 2014 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


As-salaam alaikum.  Brother, we should not get upset when unbelievers make st**id statements.  Rather, we should respond to them.  We cannot be too uptight.  Otherwise, they may get the impression that we don't have any answers.
With respect bro, this clown Ron Webb has been 'at it' for well over a year now. He just conterargues every point we make with nonsense and we shouldn't entertain clowns like him.
 
I agree with you that these kuffar have the right to make any statement that they wish however there is a limit. Once we know that they are out to mock us then we should stop engaging with that clown, in my humble opinion.
 
These jokers are here on forums like this for lurid entertainment only.
IP IP Logged
Ron Webb
Male Humanism
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 January 2008
Online Status: Online
Posts: 1786
Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2014 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Many people believed (the Christian version of) Jesus too.  And Buddha.  And Lao-Tzu.  And Joseph Smith.  And L. Ron Hubbard.  Why don't you believe any of them?

Now, now, don't change the subject.  You opened this thread, Ron.  You gave it the title "Why would anyone believe him?"  Well, people did believe him, Ron!  Your central question was absurd from the get-go! Do you acknowledge that?

Yes, I know they believed him.  My question is, why?

So you have no proof and no answers.  You're just throwing out all sorts of crackpot theories.

No, I have no proof, but neither do you; and generally speaking when someone claims to hear God talking to them, the least likely possibility is that God is really talking to him.  So why in this case would anyone assume that the least likely possibility is the truth?

Now, let's deal with your theories.  Was Muhammad (peace be upon him) motivated by power, wealth and influence?  The short answer is no.  Here is the long answer:

He was already a well-respected merchant and married to a well-off woman, Hazrat Khadijah (may Allah be pleased with her), by the time he received the revelation.  So, the idea that he decided one day that in order to get power, wealth and influence, he had to pretend like he received God's revelation is just absurd.

Personally, I think he probably sincerely believed it was God's voice, at least at first.  But IMHO it would still be plausible, even if it was a pretense from the beginning.  Surely that was L. Ron Hubbard's motivation in starting Scientology.  By the way, he was already a successful writer, so by your logic what he did was absurd. But it worked out pretty well for him, I'd say.

But in case you are still not convinced, let us consider that once he had made his message public and the pagan elites of Mecca had initially reacted with anger and at times violence, they became frustrated with his persistence and hence made him an offer which any man who was seeking power and wealth would have been crazy to turn down.  They offered him those things.  They offered him influence and power, if only he would stop preaching against their idols.  Yet, he refused their offer!  Why would he have done that if his goal was the very things the pagans had just offered him?

Maybe because, as I said, if he had recanted, his followers might have killed him.  (That is what his own religion instructed, after all.)  Maybe because he still believed he was a true Prophet.  Maybe because the power and influence they were offering was nothing like what he already had as God's press agent.

Let's look at it another way.  If Muhammad (peace be upon him) was an impostor, then why did he go above and beyond in the practice of his religion, doing more than what he required of his followers?  For example, in the matter of fasting, it is well known that he fasted longer than his followers and that when his followers asked to be allowed to fast as long as he did, he did not allow them to do so.  Why did he do that?  Why would he have deliberately placed more difficulties on himself if he was indeed an impostor?

Maybe because he really thought that's what God wanted.  Maybe because it would help convince people like you of his sincerity.  Maybe because he didn't want the Prophet (of all people) to be accused of being lax.

As for your other crackpot theory, that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was "crazy", kindly enlighten us as to how a supposedly "crazy" person was able to so successfully change not just Arabia but the whole world?  If he was crazy, how was he able to make competent decisions in the heat of battle?  How was he able to negotiate peace treaties with various tribes?  How would a "crazy" person have accomplished so much?

I don't see why not.  Was Hitler crazy?  Lots of people thought so.  One of our own local historical notables, Louis Riel, also made competent decisions in battle, but he also (allegedly) talked to God.  For that matter, one of our prime ministers, William Lyon Mackenzie King, also had a lot of wacky spiritual experiences (including seances where he talked to his deceased dog), and yet he was a very competent leader.  It's not that surprising.

LOL Well, for one thing, he could have accepted the Meccans offer in exchange for not preaching against their religion.  Having made his enemies desperate enough to give him all the things he wanted, why did he reject their offer?  Why did he choose to live a simple life, using only a leather bed?  Why did he deliberately do more religious acts than he required of his followers?  Why did he, when he died, have only a white mule, his swords and some land?  Imagine!  The most powerful man in Arabia had no wealth at the time he died?  Where did the wealth go?  Even the land he had left was given in charity.

Muhammad had a total of fifteen wives, as many as eleven at one time, plus several female slaves as concubines.  That in itself is a measure of wealth.  More to the point, why would he need a lot of tangible wealth?  As God's Prophet, who would/could refuse him anything he wanted?  

You see, Ron?  Your crackpot ideas are utterly ridiculous!  But don't worry.  You can still live in your own world and refuse to believe in Muhammad (peace be upon him).  No one cares!  But on the Day of Judgment, you might look back on these conversations and kick yourself!

Unless of course it turns out that Gautama Buddha or Guru Nanak or any of a hundred other religious leaders had the true religion?  Again, why choose Muhammad instead of all those others?
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
IP IP Logged
fatima
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 04 August 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 979
Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2014 at 12:23am
Greetings,
Why they believed him? Well if some1 has seen a person getting to the age of 40 right infront of them n only seen the good things from that person. If u have known that person only to be an honest and truthful man and an upright member of an high esteemed household.
Another factor of every religion, no matter how many u associate with God, all of them believe in 'ONE TRUE POWERFUL, THE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING'. Not long back they themselves had seen Rab of kaaba saving this sacred house without any human help.
And lastly ron
have u ever read Holy Quran? Any person reading Holy Quran without any bias would know its something different.
He saw talked about sacial unjustice and told people that this wordly division is not what matters, He saw gave them a hope. He saw told them where and who u born does not matter as much as what u do with urself.
And yeah some other leaders mentioned did try to do somethings but they lacked in one way r other. In the book 100 most influential people, it is said that he was the only leader to achieve excellence on both wordly n religious fronts. Somebody who dint only preach equality but his prayer showed n put a master next to slave.
I know people who choose not to believe him r there but his companions saw miracles with being around him.


Edited by fatima - 05 July 2014 at 12:32am
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
IP IP Logged
fatima
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 04 August 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 979
Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2014 at 12:58am
This uptil our Prophet saw was amongst his companion, now after him saw, his companions ruled on the principles brought by him saw. The best governing goverments world had ever seen.
With time more ayaat of Holy Quran showed what had been revealed was the truth, what was told by the Prophet saw was indeed the truth.
Our leaders n much of the commons have moved so much further away from their religion but people reverting r ever increasing.
Every few years science figures something out n then v learn v were told of that in Holy Quran.
Every human true to himself eventually figures out there has to be One Most Powerfull. Knowing our own capacity, v know there has to be some guidelines from Him.
Now if some1 does not want to believe its up to them. For abu jehl it was that they can compete with everything else but not this n believing meant belittling himself n his tribe to the tribe of bani hashim.
Today people who figure out the truth n only not follow it because it means giving up many pleasures they become use to.
Lastly miracle of Holy Quran, its challenge, bring only an ayah like this n u will never do. Over 1400 years have passed n still there!


Edited by fatima - 05 July 2014 at 1:05am
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
IP IP Logged
fatima
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 04 August 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 979
Quote fatima Replybullet Posted: 05 July 2014 at 1:23am
Now the question why only him saw, there are so many others. Well the ones b4 him in their own time, if they were Prophets who came to their people should have been followed by those people they came to. Sayyidiba Muhammad saw came as a last Prophet to the whole world, every human living on this planet today is his ummah whether he believes in him r not. Previous generations were punished when they rejected a Prophet. But as Sayyidina Muhammad saw was last Prophet n that too to the whole world time limit is more.
As for gautam buddha, a scholar from pakistan dr israr mentions in his tafsir that according to few other scholars n him, buddha might have been a prophet whose teachings were lost with time.
And guru nanak never claimed to have divine revelation. In fact if u read history u will find out that a muslim scholar of the time shah waLi Allah wanted to give guru nanak a muslim burial. As he claimed that guru nanak had accepted islam before his death. Now if u look into guru nanak'S teaching u will c emphasis on one creator. This a fact a human being who truely is seeking the truth can get to on his own. Next is the divine revelation which stopped with Sayyidina Muhammad saw but been promised to be preserved till the last day.
ALLAHU Subhanahu Wataala alam
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 13 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com