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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Are These Acts of Idolatry? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Andrew Eby
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Quote Andrew Eby Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2014 at 2:19pm
Man you guys are still bickering about this subject!! This is what religion does, cause a belief so strong that we are willing to die for. Plain and simple TRUTH. The Bible was created by CHARLEMAGNE. Before that the BIBLE the KING JAMES version ALL the so called Christians and followers of Christ go by and all the different versions NIV, NKJ, all these RE-written versions that the BIBLE clearly states not to RE WRITE. Look up KING JAMES and who he was!! He was a tyrant, queer, was believed to have sex with animals, loved torture And made the BIBLE in HIS name to DENY the GENEVA version. He believed a king should have the divine right by his mom who was an adulterer, pretty much slut in modern day terms. Islam clearly states not to bow down before any other GOD. In a sense everyone who is religious in these days are following wrong teachings. All of our beliefs are connected and until the day we come together and find the TRUTH, you two will still be having this st**id argument calling people *****s and *****s. I could do the same but that's not my mission. My mission is to open your eyes to the facts if history.
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Andrew Eby
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Quote Andrew Eby Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2014 at 2:30pm
Sorry but the Sumerian texts is the oldest texts on this planet, they had it right!! All the great leaders and martyrs and all that they taught will be nothing if we don't come together and find out the TRUTH about our PAST!!! You guys sit here and bicker like two children when the majority of the planet refuses to accept the facts and TRUTH about what went on in the past!! So the mere fact that you two have continued this for this long shows me that this process will take longer than it should. Look up city of DWARKA, PUMU PUNKU, check out the FACTS that our ANCIENT SOCIETY LEFT US.
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Andrew Eby
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Quote Andrew Eby Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2014 at 2:32pm
TRUTH IS OUR ONLY REALITY FOR THE UNIVERSE AND OURSELVES.
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 18 August 2014 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by Andrew Eby

Man you guys are still bickering about this subject!! This is what religion does, cause a belief so strong that we are willing to die for. Plain and simple TRUTH. The Bible was created by CHARLEMAGNE. Before that the BIBLE the KING JAMES version ALL the so called Christians and followers of Christ go by and all the different versions NIV, NKJ, all these RE-written versions that the BIBLE clearly states not to RE WRITE. Look up KING JAMES and who he was!! He was a tyrant, queer, was believed to have sex with animals, loved torture And made the BIBLE in HIS name to DENY the GENEVA version. He believed a king should have the divine right by his mom who was an adulterer, pretty much slut in modern day terms. Islam clearly states not to bow down before any other GOD. In a sense everyone who is religious in these days are following wrong teachings. All of our beliefs are connected and until the day we come together and find the TRUTH, you two will still be having this st**id argument calling people *****s and *****s. I could do the same but that's not my mission. My mission is to open your eyes to the facts if history.


First of all, who is talking about the Bible?  This thread is about whether the pictures shown in the first post are evidence of idolatry. 

Second, where did you get the idea that Charlemagne created the Bible?!  Charlemagne was born in the 8th century CE.  The Bible, even though it has been edited and corrupted many times, did exist before then.  The historical proof contradicts your claim.  The Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus are the oldest manuscripts of the Bible, and they date to the 4th century CE. 

Third, you are complaining about "bickering" and "argument".  When people have different views, there is going to be "bickering" and "arguments".  That is part of the problem!  Of course, if everyone believed the same thing, then we would not be arguing in the first place, but people don't believe the same thing.  That is why we "bicker", in an attempt to make the other person see the truth.  The problem is that people simply choose not to accept the truth.  But it is hoped that through the "bickering", perhaps someone will accept the facts, even if it is not the person you are bickering with.       
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Andrew Eby
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Quote Andrew Eby Replybullet Posted: 18 August 2014 at 10:31pm
Brother do you think I don't know that? Charlamagne was the main person behind what the BIBLE is today. Not disputing any of your other facts cause they are correct among many other as you know, I take it your smart and intellectual just don't undermine me when you should know what I'm taking about from previous posts.
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2014 at 7:49am
Originally posted by Andrew Eby

Brother do you think I don't know that? Charlamagne was the main person behind what the BIBLE is today. Not disputing any of your other facts cause they are correct among many other as you know, I take it your smart and intellectual just don't undermine me when you should know what I'm taking about from previous posts.


Hi Andrew.  I wasn't trying to "undermine" you.  I was simply responding to what I saw as an inaccurate statement.  I still fail to see how Charlemagne was "the main person behind what the Bible is today".  Please clarify. 

I also don't see how this is relevant to this particular thread.  We are not even talking about the Bible.  We are not even talking about whether idolatry is right or wrong (of course, I believe it is wrong and a grave sin), but whether the pictures I showed were indicative of it.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Andrew Eby
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Quote Andrew Eby Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2014 at 12:02pm
First there was the Geneva then king James the 1st made the King James Version then Charlemagne had a meeting with the leaders of the church to discuss peace between the fighting religions at that time and they all came together and this is what we have as the BiBLE today. I only bring up the bible because that's what most other religions go by. Just to add on the king james part as well, he was a majorly documented homosexual, tyrant, murderer, torturer among many other. His mom as well was in these day and even those days a whore and adulterer. It is disputed if king james was of royal blood at one point. Any way, the only reason why I interjected was because I wrote something on here not knowing it was on this thread and have been getting what you to have been writing. I read all of them and both of make very correct statements. The thing is, through thousands of years of the TRUTH being manipulated and distorted, doesn't matter who's right any more cause we all are in a sense so it will be never ending struggle is all I'm saying. Just as you put it, it takes arguing to see someone else's point of view and hopefully open their eyes. In many cases that's true. But what I can give you now is the evidence, the cold hard facts, the TRUTH, the cheese haha. It's all at our finger tips you just gotta search for it and research. Basic understanding of truth though is that there is false in truth and truth in false, up until the day the whole truth is revealed is when we can start growing as a human race and to unite and be free from these slave masters that we have in power and that has been for the last few thousand years. Maybe this will open your eyes to see that arguing does nothing, I can lay down cold hard facts that we can't deny and so can you and so can everyone else. But the truth is, is that the Greek version of what went on back then is our most truthful account. It goes along with 90%of what the other ancient civilizations foretold. I do be Allah, Jesus, BUDHA, Mohamed and every other great person had role to play in our figuring out the truth. It's just weeding and seeing things how they were and to use the facts we have today and stop refusing to deny us the TRUTH any more. We aren't alone in this UNIVERSE and the FACTS FOR thousands of years is in our freaken faces!! Wake up!!
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2014 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

This is again an absurd comparison.  Praying to a statue is completely different from "talking" to a loved one at their grave.  First of all, for people who believe in the afterlife, a loved one who has passed on is not just a "corpse" or "ashes", because the soul still exists.  So, conversing with the departed makes sense in the regard.

Just as the god represented by the statue still (hypothetically) exists.  How is it "completely different"?

Originally posted by Ron Webb

No, not correct at all.  No more correct than suggesting that because my wife is physically present on earth, then a picture of her is not necessary.
How do you know?  Do you think there were statues of Mary when she was still alive (assuming people actually prayed to her)?  What about Jesus?  Obviously, if Mary was physically present, for example, in front of the Pope, he would not need a statue to pray to her.  He could just tell her what he wanted!

And if my wife is physically present, for example in front of me, then I wouldn't need a picture of her.  But if I'm at work and she isn't there, it's nice to have the picture.  Still not seeing the difference...

Originally posted by Ron Webb

So, Catholics would pray to the literal Mary or to a literal saint.  Would that not be idolatry?  Now, replace the literal Mary or the literal saint with a statue.  What changes?  Prayers are still being made to a physical object, even if it is a "symbol" which represents the actual being.  Is that not idolatry?
No, prayers are still being made to Mary, not to a physical object.  If I call my wife on the phone, I'm still talking to my wife, even though my voice is being directed to a physical device.
Is Mary, or any other person, not a "physical object"?

I don't think I'm following you.  When you referred to a "physical object", I assumed you meant other than Mary herself.  I hope you can see people as more than mere physical objects.  You believe in the concept of a soul, don't you?  I don't happen to share that belief, but surely we agree that reducing people to "physical objects" is overly reductive and simplistic.

Are you kidding?  If it was all "symbolic", then there would be no need to use music to "wake up" the idol (and yes, it is the idol that is being literally "woken" up).  There would also be no need to "bathe" the idol (and yes, it is the idol that is literally being "bathed").  This is all literal, not symbolic.  Your special pleading will get you no where.

From our point of view there is no need for any of this ritual, but it is part of their tradition.  Who are you to tell them what is necessary?  And yes, obviously it is symbolic.  The music is literally being played, and the idol is literally being bathed; but they don't play the music expecting any response from the idol, and they don't wash the idol because it is dirty.

And you believe it was either capillary action, evaporation, mass hysteria, observational error etc., and yet after being confronted with the facts, you have avoided further discussion!

Sorry, which facts have I been "confronted" with?  Capillary action was actually demonstrated by India's Ministry of Science and Technology in at least one case.  It is a real phenomenon -- as are evaporation, mass hysteria, observational error, etc.  Did you disprove these phenomena at some point?  Because if so, I missed it.

Yes, I know what "humanism" is and I also know that atheistic apologists are embarrassed at the fact that fellow atheists have committed monstrous acts of violence (despite their insistence to the contrary), so they use the word "humanism" instead, because it sounds so much better.

In other words, you don't know what humanism is.  You seem to think it is a synonym for atheism.  It is not.

No, you ninny, that's not what I said.  I said that even if Islam did not exist, the world would still be a violent place.  People are the problem, not some ideology or religion.  So even if Islam did not exist, the problems in the Middle East (for example) would still exist.

Maybe, maybe not.  I think we just agreed that neither of us can know for sure.  Which means that neither of us can say for sure that Satan (or some other malevolent supernatural being, call him whatever you want) would not want to create a plethora of monotheistic religions, just to watch them go at one another.

Conversely, if people actually followed the tenets of Islam, then the world would be a much better place.

IMHO it would be a drab, dull, boring place for men, and a repressive, misogynistic place for women.  But that's a topic for another time, perhaps.

In fact, I would actually say that if Islam did not exist, the world would be a much worse place, because then there would not be the moral compass of Islamic tenets to persuade people to avoid sinful behavior, such as violence against the innocent.  Islam abolished savage acts like female infanticide, tribal war etc.  It also jump-started the European Renaissance.  If it did not exist, then it is unlikely that the Renaissance would have ever occurred.  At the very least, the Renaissance would have been delayed for hundreds of years.

Do you have to reach back hundreds of years to find anything good to say about Islam?  It may have had a positive influence when it first began, but the world has changed, and Islam has not.  In fact, the very idea of "innovation" is anathema to Islam.

What has Islam done for us lately?
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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