Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Are These Acts of Idolatry? Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 10 Next >>
Author Message
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2254
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 02 August 2014 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by islamispeace

Are you aware that, at least in the United States, even disposing of a damaged or worn out flag has to be done in a "respectful" way?


No, it doesn't have to be done in any particular way.  If you want to follow the instructions you linked to ("edited by BarefootedWonder and 28 others"LOL), go ahead; but trust me, if you choose to dispose of your worn out flag in the trash, nothing bad will happen.

The US Flag Code presents guidelines for public and ceremonial use of the flag.  It "errs on the side of caution" so as not to offend anyone; and yes, if a nosy neighbour happens to see a US flag in your trash, he might be offended.  So just tell him it was an old worn-out flag and you intended no disrespect.  If he persists, tell him he is committing the fallacy of reification. Wink


Sure, it doesn't have to be disposed that way, but the very fact that there are "suggestions" shows that the flag is much more than just "cloth". 

Also, there is a law which prescribes a fine and possible jail time for anyone who deliberately desecrates the flag:

"Whoever knowingly mutilates, defaces, physically defiles, burns, maintains on the floor or ground, or tramples upon any flag of the United States shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both." (http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/700)


Again, why would this be so if the flag is just a piece of "cloth"?  What if someone deliberately defaced a bedsheet made from the same material?  LOL   
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
Andrew Eby
Male Other
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 03 August 2014
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10
Quote Andrew Eby Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2014 at 11:50am
Yes, my brother. As a follower of Christ I believe our actions have stripped away from us by FALSE teachings. The act of kneeling before your savior, the KING!! Has been stripped from the publics eye. I myself see this very evident throughout the United States. I want to get back to God and give him my FREE WILL back because my WILL is to serve HIM, rejoice in HIM and KNEEL before HIM. So I believe you still don't understand the meaning in being a follower. All the religions are connected and the day we come together and philosophy like logical human beings and stop fighting on who's wrong and who's right, why don't we all come together out of love and piece this together. One people, one destiny, one GOD is our destiny as the human race. I would love to speak with the leaders of Islam about this issue we have in religions. So much fighting an desperation from the one TRUE fact, that ALL of us are HIS children and look at how GOD must feel right now with all the religions fighting and bickering I'm who's right and who's wrong, CHILDISH, as we are STILL CHILDREN fighting amongst ourselves, let's grow up and come together and fight for what is TRUTH and what is RIGHT and put the past behind us so we can grow in HIM together as one PEOPLE. I beg the leaders of the world to lay down the weapons and stop death. Why do you think there is son much death?? Truth has been long hidden, and you know that saying?? " you can't handle the truth" that's absolutely TRUE. We can't handle the truth in these days because the TRUTH has been manipulated, distorted to the point where we fight amongst ourselves I have the evidence for that. Tower of Babel. Telling the truth is a hard thing to do because it can make someone mad, angry, jealous, hated and everything that that coincides with evil if you do not tell the truth. Why do you think there is so much death in the world?? All those emotions lead to one ending and that's DEATH. Like I said I love all of the people in this world and my words are kind and gentle. Power of info is our finger tips, and really appreciate this site for letting express my feelings to other religions around the world and to hear what other people have to say. We are connecting as we speak lol
IP IP Logged
Ron Webb
Male Humanism
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1783
Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2014 at 6:16pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Sure, it doesn't have to be disposed that way, but the very fact that there are "suggestions" shows that the flag is much more than just "cloth".

Indeed, it is also a symbol of American values.  It is the symbolic significance that is treated respectfully (or not), not the mere cloth.

Also, there is a law which prescribes a fine and possible jail time for anyone who deliberately desecrates the flag:

FYI, the Flag Protection Act was struck down as unconstitutional in 1990.  It was deemed to be an unreasonable infringement on freedom of expression.  The Supreme Court's ruling emphasized the distinction between the symbolic value of the flag, versus its physical manifestation:

"The Government's interest in protecting the 'physical integrity' of a privately owned flag rests upon a perceived need to preserve the flag's status as a symbol of our Nation and certain national ideals. But the mere destruction or disfigurement of a particular physical manifestation of the symbol, without more, does not diminish or otherwise affect the symbol itself in any way. For example, the secret destruction of a flag in one's own basement would not threaten the flag's recognized meaning. Rather, the Government's desire to preserve the flag as a symbol for certain national ideals is implicated "only when a person's treatment of the flag communicates [a] message" to others that is inconsistent with those ideals."
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
IP IP Logged
Caringheart
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 March 2012
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2287
Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2014 at 7:10pm
Re: idols and idol worship

The Lord tonight has revealed to me this thing which may be useful to putting aside misunderstandings and aggreviances.
When Muhammad came to the arab people to teach them about the One God... they were worshiping many gods, one of which was The God, al-Lah.
Their idols of these gods were present in the ka'aba and the people came to give them tribute.  Muhammad made clear that there was only One God(allah) and these idols to other gods were worthless.

The statues of the Catholic church are not idols to other gods... they are in honor and representative of the One God... the One who chose Mary to conceive, carry, and bear Yshwe...
they honor and represent Yshwe, sent to bring the Word, the Gospel, the Good News, to all people....
they represent the saints that have gone to their deaths in service to the One true God.

asalaam.


Edited by Caringheart - 04 August 2014 at 7:12pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2254
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 04 August 2014 at 8:18pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Indeed, it is also a symbol of American values.  It is the symbolic significance that is treated respectfully (or not), not the mere cloth.


Oh please.  If it was "mere cloth" and only the "symbolic significance" was important, then no one would get upset at the desecration of the "cloth". 

Originally posted by Ron Webb

YI, the Flag Protection Act was struck down as unconstitutional in 1990.  It was deemed to be an unreasonable infringement on freedom of expression.  The Supreme Court's ruling emphasized the distinction between the symbolic value of the flag, versus its physical manifestation:

"The Government's interest in protecting the 'physical integrity' of a privately owned flag rests upon a perceived need to preserve the flag's status as a symbol of our Nation and certain national ideals. But the mere destruction or disfigurement of a particular physical manifestation of the symbol, without more, does not diminish or otherwise affect the symbol itself in any way. For example, the secret destruction of a flag in one's own basement would not threaten the flag's recognized meaning. Rather, the Government's desire to preserve the flag as a symbol for certain national ideals is implicated "only when a person's treatment of the flag communicates [a] message" to others that is inconsistent with those ideals."


Nevertheless, the fact that a law was even considered shows that the flag is much more than just "cloth".  The Supreme Court may have struck down the law and given its own opinions, but it doesn't change the fact that the law was in place to prosecute those who desecrate the flag.  This illustrates that it is not just a "symbol".  Besides, the Supreme Court struck down the law simply because it was, in its opinion, a violation of the First Amendment.  What does that have to do with whether the flag is a symbol or not?   
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
Ron Webb
Male Humanism
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1783
Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2014 at 6:03am

Originally posted by islamispeace

Oh please.  If it was "mere cloth" and only the "symbolic significance" was important, then no one would get upset at the desecration of the "cloth".

Confused That's what I just said.  No one should be upset at the destruction of a piece of cloth.  (Not "desecration" -- you can't desecrate a piece of cloth.)  The only people who would get upset are those who mistakenly see a symbolic significance in the act, where none is intended.
 
Nevertheless, the fact that a law was even considered shows that the flag is much more than just "cloth".  The Supreme Court may have struck down the law and given its own opinions, but it doesn't change the fact that the law was in place to prosecute those who desecrate the flag.  This illustrates that it is not just a "symbol".  Besides, the Supreme Court struck down the law simply because it was, in its opinion, a violation of the First Amendment.  What does that have to do with whether the flag is a symbol or not?

It has everything to do with it.  The mere destruction of a piece of cloth does not communicate anything and therefore cannot be a violation of the First Amendment.  The First Amendment only comes into play when the flag is used as a symbol and the act of destroying it is intended to communicate a message of disrespect for the values it represents.  That intention is what makes the act offensive -- not the mere destruction of a piece of cloth.

And in exactly the same way, bowing or praying before a statue is only an act of idolatry when the intention is to worship the statue itself.  If the statue is a symbol for God and the intention is to direct one's prayers to God, then it is merely a focus of worship (like the Black Stone), not an object of worship.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2254
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2014 at 8:45am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Confused That's what I just said.  No one should be upset at the destruction of a piece of cloth.  (Not "desecration" -- you can't desecrate a piece of cloth.)  The only people who would get upset are those who mistakenly see a symbolic significance in the act, where none is intended.


LOL Your personal opinions are irrelevant.  The fact remains that people do take offense when a flag is "desecrated", regardless of whether you feel that they shouldn't.  So yes, you can desecrate a "piece of cloth".

If it was merely the "symbol" that is important, then there shouldn't even be a "flag".  What the flag supposedly stands for are abstract concepts like "freedom" or "democracy". You can't "desecrate" freedom or democracy, but you can desecrate the physical representation of them, i.e. the flag.  So, if people simply stop using flags, then there will not be a problem at all of desecration.  You can't desecrate something that has no physical form.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

It has everything to do with it.  The mere destruction of a piece of cloth does not communicate anything and therefore cannot be a violation of the First Amendment.  The First Amendment only comes into play when the flag is used as a symbol and the act of destroying it is intended to communicate a message of disrespect for the values it represents.  That intention is what makes the act offensive -- not the mere destruction of a piece of cloth.

And in exactly the same way, bowing or praying before a statue is only an act of idolatry when the intention is to worship the statue itself.  If the statue is a symbol for God and the intention is to direct one's prayers to God, then it is merely a focus of worship (like the Black Stone), not an object of worship.



What does "intention" have to do with the simple fact that the law was struck down on the basis of "freedom of expression" or that the law was put into effect at all before being struck down?  Whatever the intention was, the law was in place and was then declared "unconstitutional".  Period.  and by the way, even the Supreme Court was divided on the issue.  It was a 5-4 decision to declare the law "unconstitutional".

Praying to a statue and making offerings to it is idolatry because those are acts of worship.  If "focus" was the intention, then people could just stare at a wall or at the ground, or just close their eyes.  Idols would not even be needed, in the same way that a flag is not needed as a "symbol" for "freedom".   


Edited by islamispeace - 05 August 2014 at 8:50am
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
abuayisha
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 October 1999
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4368
Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2014 at 9:45am
http://www.ktre.com/story/25970417/houston-county-flag-desecration-case-gets-new-life
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 10 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com