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Message Icon Topic: Are These Acts of Idolatry? Post Reply Post New Topic
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Topic: Are These Acts of Idolatry?
    Posted: 24 June 2014 at 5:55pm
Alright, so here is "quiz" of sorts.  Look at the pictures below and determine if the act shown constitutes the act of idolatry.

A. 

B. 

C. 

D. 

Which of these images represents idolatry?

A. A

B. B

C. C

D. D

E. All of the Above

F. Not sure

G. A and D only  


Edited by islamispeace - 24 June 2014 at 5:57pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 24 June 2014 at 8:21pm
You forgot to include an image of millions of Muslims bowing to a Black Stone.

Oh yeah, they're not actually worshipping the stone.  The stone is just the focus of their worship, not the object of worship itself.

But don't you think that is what all those other worshippers would say?
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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NABA
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 25 June 2014 at 6:06am
Assalamalecum,Ron it seems u didn't did ur homework well, firsr of all we worship only Allah and we can't attach any humanely attribute to it,we kiss blackstone and touch it because it is Sunnah of prophet Muhammad (pbuh),u tell me if one worships anything does he hv courage or ability to touch it????the people who worship in these photos their intention is to worship these objects, we do hajj and umrah because of the commandment of Allah whenever we do it we state that whatever we are doing it is for Allah only.because Allah knows our heart in fact he says in ch 20 v 7 it is not necessary to call him by uttering we can remember him even thru our hearts.main thing is intention.
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Quote Lachi Replybullet Posted: 25 June 2014 at 12:51pm
So the examples A-D can be judged solely on the image without taking into account the participants' intent. But the Black Stone needs you to understand the intent because it is 'different'.

Double standards are very evident.
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 25 June 2014 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by NABA

Assalamalecum,Ron it seems u didn't did ur homework well, firsr of all we worship only Allah and we can't attach any humanely attribute to it,we kiss blackstone and touch it because it is Sunnah of prophet Muhammad (pbuh),u tell me if one worships anything does he hv courage or ability to touch it????

 
 Maybe, maybe not; but I'm not saying you worship the Black Stone.  Nor are the people in those photos literally worshipping stone or wood or paint.  Here is how one Web site explains it:

"The worshippers are not bowing down to stone, they are not worshipping a statue; they are approaching these sacred images as the means to get to the God behind the image. In a similar way, a Christian may kneell before a crucifix of Jesus and pray. The worshipper is not worshipping the wooden cross, but instead he is approaching his object of devotion, Jesus, through the manifestation of the crucifix. This is a form of idol worship from a Hindu perspective. Even a Muslim, who will never worship any form, cannot help but have some abstract mental image or concept of God. This too is an idol of God, albeit an abstract mental idol. It can not be helped. This is what I mean when I say there is no way to conceive of and worship God except through some form of idol worship."
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 25 June 2014 at 5:23pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

You forgot to include an image of millions of Muslims bowing to a Black Stone.

Oh yeah, they're not actually worshipping the stone.  The stone is just the focus of their worship, not the object of worship itself.

But don't you think that is what all those other worshippers would say?


LOL I knew someone would make this asinine comparison.  How predictable!

But as NABA pointed out, Muslims don't worship the black stone (nor do we bow down to it or pray to it).  The black stone simply serves as a marker for tawaf and is believed to be a fragment of Paradise, which is why people kiss it.  To highlight how insignificant its role is, we can point to the seizure of the stone by the Qarmatians in 930 CE.  It was held by them for more than 20 years and yet the Hajj continued without it! 

So there is no question that comparing the pictures above, which show people actually bowing and praying to statues, to the Muslim veneration of the black stone is ludicrous. 

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Maybe, maybe not; but I'm not saying you worship the Black Stone.  Nor are the people in those photos literally worshipping stone or wood or paint.  Here is how one Web site explains it:

"The worshippers are not bowing down to stone, they are not worshipping a statue; they are approaching these sacred images as the means to get to the God behind the image. In a similar way, a Christian may kneell before a crucifix of Jesus and pray. The worshipper is not worshipping the wooden cross, but instead he is approaching his object of devotion, Jesus, through the manifestation of the crucifix. This is a form of idol worship from a Hindu perspective. Even a Muslim, who will never worship any form, cannot help but have some abstract mental image or concept of God. This too is an idol of God, albeit an abstract mental idol. It can not be helped. This is what I mean when I say there is no way to conceive of and worship God except through some form of idol worship."


This is simply one opinion, and it is logically absurd.  Not only do Hindus literally bow down to the statue, they pray to it and ask it for help.  They even offer it food! 

The irony is that the above website still admits that Hindus actually "worship" their idols, while also making the laughable assertion that Muslims and Jews also practice idol worship.  Some Christians may practice idolatry, as the above pictures show, but Muslims and Jews certainly do not.  Idolatry is anathema to both. 

There is no doubt that Hindus actually believe that their idols are the actual deities.  As another website explains it:

"From the point of view that there is only one absolute Truth and everything else is only a manifestation of that Truth, an idol is only a representation and not the 'real thing'. But from the point of view of a devotee who needs to worship Divinity in name and form, the images and idols which have been sanctified by the various mantras and rituals are themselves the deities which have as much power as the Absolute. So a Balaji in Tirupati, a Nataraja in Chidambaram, a Meenakshi in Madurai, a Visvesvara-linga in Kasi, a Jagannath in Puri, a Guruvayoorappan in Guruvayyor, a Krishna in Udupi, a Varadaraja in Kanchi and a Venkatesvara in Pittsburg and hosts of such sanctified 'images and idols' should not be cast into the role of just a 'representation' of the Absolute as a flag for the army." (http://www.krishnamurthys.com/profvk/gohitvip/1202.html)


Now, coming back to the original question, which of the images above exhibits idol worship?  The answer may surprise some!
    


Edited by islamispeace - 25 June 2014 at 8:55pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 26 June 2014 at 10:22am
Originally posted by islamispeace

But as NABA pointed out, Muslims don't worship the black stone (nor do we bow down to it or pray to it).  The black stone simply serves as a marker for tawaf and is believed to be a fragment of Paradise, which is why people kiss it.  To highlight how insignificant its role is, we can point to the seizure of the stone by the Qarmatians in 930 CE.  It was held by them for more than 20 years and yet the Hajj continued without it!

The theft of the stone was "insignificant"?  Please, you expect me to believe that?  Then why did they struggle so hard to get it back, and why did they end up paying a ransom for it?

So there is no question that comparing the pictures above, which show people actually bowing and praying to statues, to the Muslim veneration of the black stone is ludicrous.

Yes, I know that Muslims say they don't worship the black stone, and yet they behave exactly as if they did. Anyone watching their behaviour in the Kaaba (or taking a photo of it and posting it in this discussion) would see no important difference between that and the behaviour of other religions "worshipping" their "idols".

This is simply one opinion, and it is logically absurd.  Not only do Hindus literally bow down to the statue, they pray to it and ask it for help.  They even offer it food!

Yes, and Muslims literally bow down to the black stone, kiss it and even talk to it: "I know that you are a mere stone that can neither harm nor do any good. If I had not seen the Prophet (peace be upon him) kissing you, I would have never kissed you."  Again, even though he says it's "a mere stone", yet he talks to it as if it were something more.  He kisses it, he bows to it, he cries in its presence.  But it's "insignificant", "a mere stone". Ermm

It reminds me of a man explaining to his wife that he is not at all attracted to another woman, while at the same time hold that other woman in his arms, kissing her, etc.  Should we believe what he says, or what he does?

The irony is that the above website still admits that Hindus actually "worship" their idols, while also making the laughable assertion that Muslims and Jews also practice idol worship.  Some Christians may practice idolatry, as the above pictures show, but Muslims and Jews certainly do not.  Idolatry is anathema to both.

Instead of just dismissing it as "laughable", why not actually address the point?  How can you address a prayer to an unknowable and ineffable God without constructing some kind of mental image or concept first?  And is there really any significant difference between constructing such an image in your mind, versus drawing it on paper or sculpting it in wood?



Edited by Ron Webb - 26 June 2014 at 10:23am
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2014 at 11:52am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

The theft of the stone was "insignificant"?  Please, you expect me to believe that?  Then why did they struggle so hard to get it back, and why did they end up paying a ransom for it?


LOL Calm down, Ron.  You missed the point.  My point was that despite the fact that the black stone was missing from the Kaaba for over 20 years, it did not effect Muslim rituals.  Muslims were still able to make their prayers and to perform the Hajj.  If the black stone was so important to Islam, then its seizure would have been a terrible constraint on Islamic rituals, but it wasn't.  Now of course the Muslims tried their best to get it back.  The reason is that it is an important relic, going back to the time of Adam (peace be upon him).  It is a fragment of Paradise, so why wouldn't they have tried to get it back?!  It is like the Kaaba itself.  If the Kaaba was damaged and destroyed, why wouldn't Muslims simply rebuild it?  But in the meantime, would the absence of the Kaaba stop Muslim rituals?  Of course not!  The reason is that neither the Kaaba nor the black stone are the object of Muslim prayers, unlike the idols used in some religions.  Without these idols, they would not be able to pray.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Yes, I know that Muslims say they don't worship the black stone, and yet they behave exactly as if they did. Anyone watching their behaviour in the Kaaba (or taking a photo of it and posting it in this discussion) would see no important difference between that and the behaviour of other religions "worshipping" their "idols".
 

Oh please.  I do believe you are over-exaggerating!  How is kissing the stone akin to the actual worship of idols?  Please enlighten me!  Do Muslims pray to the stone?  Do they ask it for help? 

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Yes, and Muslims literally bow down to the black stone, kiss it and even talk to it: "I know that you are a mere stone that can neither harm nor do any good. If I had not seen the Prophet (peace be upon him) kissing you, I would have never kissed you."  Again, even though he says it's "a mere stone", yet he talks to it as if it were something more.  He kisses it, he bows to it, he cries in its presence.  But it's "insignificant", "a mere stone". Ermm


LOL You missed the point again!  Hazrat Umar was simply pointing out that he did not believe that the stone had any power.  He wanted to show that the stone is just a stone with no power, but that since the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) kissed it, then so should all Muslims.  The reason for this is as I have said already.  The stone is a fragment of Paradise.

Umar was simply demonstrating for the rest of us that the stone is not an object of worship, in contrast to your absurd claim.  Muslims don't talk to the stone.  Umar did it once to make a point, which you obviously missed. Ermm    

Originally posted by Ron Webb

It reminds me of a man explaining to his wife that he is not at all attracted to another woman, while at the same time hold that other woman in his arms, kissing her, etc.  Should we believe what he says, or what he does?


Clap Really?  Is that the best you can do? 

How is this akin to Muslims kissing the stone out of respect for its origin (Paradise)?  How is kissing something an act of worship?

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Instead of just dismissing it as "laughable", why not actually address the point?  How can you address a prayer to an unknowable and ineffable God without constructing some kind of mental image or concept first?  And is there really any significant difference between constructing such an image in your mind, versus drawing it on paper or sculpting it in wood?
  

Just because a person might construct "some kind of mental image or concept" does not mean it is right to do so and that we should automatically take that as a sign that idol worship is fine.  That would be like if a man sees an attractive woman, and feels sexually attracted to her as a result, and then decides that this is reason enough to have intercourse with her.  From a religious point of view, committing fornication or adultery are forbidden even though "mental" attraction is not something people can always control.  But we can control our actions.  Thoughts are a different matter.

Why don't you address the point raised by the website I referenced? 

And even if idol worshipers don't actually consider the idol to literally be the deity (which is complete baloney), why do they still literally pray to it instead of the deity and make offerings to it?  What does making prayers and offerings to the idol have to do with "concentration"? Shocked  
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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