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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 30 June 2014 at 3:34am
I think people like Ron Webb understand fully well all of this but they want to twist it and turn it so that anything/everything to do with Islam looks bad.

I wonder what answers he has thought up for the questions that he will be asked on the Day of Resurrection?
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Lachi
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Quote Lachi Replybullet Posted: 30 June 2014 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

For those of you who just do not understand or have been living in a closet for years, Dubai currently has the tallest building in the world. However, Saudi Arabia is now considering/planning/building another tall building to beat Dubai.One could say both people are descendants of herdsmen or Bedouins. That's what the Hadith is about.


Seems competing to build tall buildings is quite common among the herdsmen -

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society.php?yyyy=2013&mm=10&dd=09&nav_id=87940

http://armstrongwilliam.wordpress.com/2012/08/01/a-competition-for-the-giant-camlica-mosque/

http://www.e-architect.co.uk/kosovo/central-mosque-competition-entry

And so forth.
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 30 June 2014 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by Lachi

Originally posted by Abu Loren

For those of you who just do not understand or have been living in a closet for years, Dubai currently has the tallest building in the world. However, Saudi Arabia is now considering/planning/building another tall building to beat Dubai.One could say both people are descendants of herdsmen or Bedouins. That's what the Hadith is about.


Seems competing to build tall buildings is quite common among the herdsmen -

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society.php?yyyy=2013&mm=10&dd=09&nav_id=87940

http://armstrongwilliam.wordpress.com/2012/08/01/a-competition-for-the-giant-camlica-mosque/

http://www.e-architect.co.uk/kosovo/central-mosque-competition-entry

And so forth.


So what's your point?  Are you going to continue to pretend as if the prophecy has not come true?

As I mentioned before, there are other prophecies of Muhammad (peace be upon him) that have also come true.  Would you like to see them?  I only ask because Ron hasn't responded yet to my invitation, so I am now asking you...another skeptic. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2014 at 6:04am
Originally posted by islamispeace

As usual, Ron missed the point!  The prophecy foretold that people would build tall buildings.  This has come to pass!

And that's a prophecy?  I am underwhelmed.  People have been building tall buildings since long before Muhammad.
 
Now, with regard to the alleged absence of the "herdsmen" that Ron is so uptight about, the plain fact is that he again missed the point.  Classical Islamic scholars, who lived centuries before the tall buildings were built, interpreted the reference to "herdsmen" to mean that the once poor Arabs would become rich and powerful.

You mean their descendents would become rich and powerful.  Again, I am underwhelmed.  I think it's safe to say that most rich people are descended from poor people if you trace it back far enough.

And if that's what Muhammad meant, then why didn't he say it?

There are many other prophecies that we can consider.  If Ron is up to it, I can mention some more.

Just give me your best prophecy.  This one is hardly even worth discussing.
 
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2014 at 12:04pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by islamispeace

As usual, Ron missed the point!  The prophecy foretold that people would build tall buildings.  This has come to pass!

And that's a prophecy?  I am underwhelmed.  People have been building tall buildings since long before Muhammad.
 
Now, with regard to the alleged absence of the "herdsmen" that Ron is so uptight about, the plain fact is that he again missed the point.  Classical Islamic scholars, who lived centuries before the tall buildings were built, interpreted the reference to "herdsmen" to mean that the once poor Arabs would become rich and powerful.

You mean their descendents would become rich and powerful.  Again, I am underwhelmed.  I think it's safe to say that most rich people are descended from poor people if you trace it back far enough.

And if that's what Muhammad meant, then why didn't he say it?

There are many other prophecies that we can consider.  If Ron is up to it, I can mention some more.

Just give me your best prophecy.  This one is hardly even worth discussing.
 
Poor Ron Webb. The guys has nothing better do in life but to log onto islamicity and counter argue everything that a Muslim says without any logic or reason. Sad.
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Lachi
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Quote Lachi Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2014 at 3:22pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


Originally posted by Lachi

Originally posted by Abu Loren

For those of you who just do not understand or have been living in a closet for years, Dubai currently has the tallest building in the world. However, Saudi Arabia is now considering/planning/building another tall building to beat Dubai.One could say both people are descendants of herdsmen or Bedouins. That's what the Hadith is about.


Seems competing to build tall buildings is quite common among the herdsmen -

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/society.php?yyyy=2013&mm=10&dd=09&nav_id=87940

http://armstrongwilliam.wordpress.com/2012/08/01/a-competition-for-the-giant-camlica-mosque/

http://www.e-architect.co.uk/kosovo/central-mosque-competition-entry

And so forth.
So what's your point?  Are you going to continue to pretend as if the prophecy has not come true?As I mentioned before, there are other prophecies of Muhammad (peace be upon him) that have also come true.  Would you like to see them?  I only ask because Ron hasn't responded yet to my invitation, so I am now asking you...another skeptic. 


My point is that tall buildings, and competing over the building of them, has nothing to do with riches. The prophecy does not say that the herdsman will become rich.   That is an addition and not in the original. Building tall buildings need not be due to the pursuit of capitalism. Surely it could mean a time when Islam will become more prominent - that the devotion of Muslims (herdsmen) will lead to splendour (tall buildings) in displaying the word of Allah? The articles I linked to might suggest that.

The second part of the 'signs' says that the barefoot and poor will rule the Earth. Would this not be the state of Islam, which rejects the pursuit of wealth? Could the poverty and submission of the followers of Islam lead the World to submit to Allah's law?


Please tell me more about the other prophecies.   
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2014 at 5:01pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

And that's a prophecy?  I am underwhelmed.  People have been building tall buildings since long before Muhammad.


You're still not getting it.  The prophecy stated that a time would come that the poor and downtrodden Bedouins would become wealthy and compete with each other in constructing tall buildings.  In the time of Muhammad (peace be upon him), it would have been a bold statement to make.  There was no indication that the poor Arabs would eventually become wealthy and start building tall structures. 

Originally posted by Ron Webb

You mean their descendents would become rich and powerful.  Again, I am underwhelmed.  I think it's safe to say that most rich people are descended from poor people if you trace it back far enough.


Again, you missed the point.  How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the descendants would be rich and powerful and that they would construct tall buildings? 

Originally posted by Ron Webb

And if that's what Muhammad meant, then why didn't he say it?


What are you talking about?  He said that a time would come when the "rabble" would betake to "palaces in big cities".  He also stated that "herdsmen" would compete in the construction of tall buildings.  Obviously, "herdsmen" would not be able to build anything without wealth.  In order to build tall structures, vast sums of money are needed.  That is what the prophecy stated.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Just give me your best prophecy.  This one is hardly even worth discussing.
 

LOL You have so far failed to offer a reasonable excuse for why you have been "underwhelmed" by this prophecy.  Here are some more prophecies:

1.  Sexual promiscuity -

"Abd Allah ibn Umar (ra) related that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said:

'The Hour will not come until there are men and women in the streets having sexual intercourse with each other like donkeys do." (Sahih Hibban, Number 1889)

This prophecy has obviously come true.  Sexual promiscuity is very common nowadays and is no longer considered taboo.  In the time of the Prophet, it would have been unthinkable.

2.  Christians will form the majority of people:

"Mustaurid Qurashi reported: I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The Last Hour would come when the Romans would form a majority amongst people. This reached 'Amr b. al-'As and he said: What are these ahadith which are being transmitted from you and which you claim to have heard from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)? Mustaurid said to him: I stated only that which I heard from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). Thereupon 'Amr said: If you state this (it is true), for they have the power of tolerance amongst people at the time of turmoil and restore themselves to sanity after trouble, and are good amongst people so far as the destitute and the weak are concerned." (Sahih Muslim, Book 41, Number 6926)

"Romans" was how the Muslims referred to the Byzantine Christians.  In this hadith, it was prophesied that the Christians would be the "majority amongst people", which of course has come true since Christians are the most numerous religious group in the world, accounting for more than 30% of the world's population.  Islam is second at around 25%. 

So here are two more prophecies which have clearly been fulfilled, alhamdulillah.     


Edited by islamispeace - 01 July 2014 at 5:02pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2014 at 7:32pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

You're still not getting it.  The prophecy stated that a time would come that the poor and downtrodden Bedouins would become wealthy and compete with each other in constructing tall buildings.  In the time of Muhammad (peace be upon him), it would have been a bold statement to make.  There was no indication that the poor Arabs would eventually become wealthy and start building tall structures.

It doesn't say Bedouins.  It says herdsmen.  Most herdsmen are not Bedouins, so you can't equate the two.

Again, you missed the point.  How did Muhammad (peace be upon him) know that the descendants would be rich and powerful and that they would construct tall buildings?

Again, Muhammad said nothing about descendents.  He said that herdsmen (not the descendents of herdsmen) would compete in building tall buildings.  The people building tall buildings today are oil billionaires, not herdsmen.

What are you talking about?  He said that a time would come when the "rabble" would betake to "palaces in big cities".  He also stated that "herdsmen" would compete in the construction of tall buildings.  Obviously, "herdsmen" would not be able to build anything without wealth.  In order to build tall structures, vast sums of money are needed.  That is what the prophecy stated.

You can't keep adding things that are not in the prophecy just to make it work for you.  The prophecy said nothing about vast sums of money.  In fact, the prophecy is extraordinary precisely because those building the tall buildings are herdsmen, presumably without vast sums of money -- not oil billionaires.  If he had meant oil billionaires descended from herdsmen (or Bedouins), then there is nothing remarkable or worth prophecying about that.

'The Hour will not come until there are men and women in the streets having sexual intercourse with each other like donkeys do." (Sahih Hibban, Number 1889)

This prophecy has obviously come true.  Sexual promiscuity is very common nowadays and is no longer considered taboo.  In the time of the Prophet, it would have been unthinkable.

I'm sorry, but you keep reading things into the prophecies that just aren't there.  The prophecy does not refer to sexual promiscuity in general.  It says men and women in the streets having sexual intercourse.  Tell where this is occurring.  I know of no such thing.

On the other hand, if he meant sexual promiscuity in general, then that's nothing new.  Ever heard of Sodom and Gomorrah?

2.  Christians will form the majority of people:

"Mustaurid Qurashi reported: I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The Last Hour would come when the Romans would form a majority amongst people. This reached 'Amr b. al-'As and he said: What are these ahadith which are being transmitted from you and which you claim to have heard from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)? Mustaurid said to him: I stated only that which I heard from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). Thereupon 'Amr said: If you state this (it is true), for they have the power of tolerance amongst people at the time of turmoil and restore themselves to sanity after trouble, and are good amongst people so far as the destitute and the weak are concerned." (Sahih Muslim, Book 41, Number 6926)

"Romans" was how the Muslims referred to the Byzantine Christians.  In this hadith, it was prophesied that the Christians would be the "majority amongst people", which of course has come true since Christians are the most numerous religious group in the world, accounting for more than 30% of the world's population.  Islam is second at around 25%.

First, 30% is not a majority.  Second, even if he only meant that Christianity would be the largest religion (not a majority), it's not obvious to me that Christianity was not already larger than Islam in Muhammad's time.  It had a six hundred year headstart, after all, and I don't know if Islam ever made up that lead.

So it seems to me that even with the most generous interpretation of both prophecies, the predicted "Last Hour" is likely overdue by at least a thousand years.  Both prophecies fail on several levels.
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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