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Interfaith Dialogue
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 02 August 2014 at 4:16am
Originally posted by thuwn


Originally posted by Abu Loren

we were at the same location on both nights at roughly at the same time but the moon was at different locations.

I thought the sun and the moon are swimming in their orbits? Therefore the earth as well isn't?And the moon - We have determined for it phases, until it returns [appearing] like the old date stalk. (Ya seen 39)


Yes indeed the Sun and the Moon are swimming in their orbits, that is around the Earth. This is because the Earth is stationary and the central focus of our Universe.

I was given a glimpse of the moon as an old date stalk as the moon grew dark and lost it's light and disappeared in front of my eyes. The following morning it did the same and looked like a withered old orange.

Please look at the pics I've posted. Now the reason for this is for all the atheists on this forum to believe in God Almighty. So believe.
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 02 August 2014 at 4:25am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

I think I understand what you're saying, abuayisha, but are you sure you want an educational system to teach morals at all?  Isn't that the job of the parents?  Or you might say, the mosques?Personally, I want an educational system that is neutral to religion, and neutral to all but the most basic moral values (e.g., tolerance, respect for law, democratic principles).  Not anti-religion, but certainly not pro-religion either.



The modern world would have been a savage world had ti not been for the morality that was imposed to the Western World by the Christian church. Even in the Dark Ages the world was about to sink into a hell hole but was held together by the Christian morals.

Sounds funny I know to see me defending Christian morals.
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airmano
 
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Quote airmano Replybullet Posted: 02 August 2014 at 4:37am
Abuayischa
Yes, but where are these "most basic moral values" derived if not from God?
A good and indeed a difficult question. I guess that even the most ferocious atheist would admit that the western legal system is (in the end) derived from the bible. This does however not answer your question. When you think it through from an agnostic point of view, you end up with the conclusion that the bible as well the Quran are (purely) man made anyway. So you don't escape the problem. It is indeed much more difficult to define (and enforce) moral rules on consensus (and reason) than on divine principles, but it is our job as responsible humans to do it.
When looking at your post (but also others) I see however one thing which is repeatedly put in the front line of moral discussion: Sex - and all the facets that go with it ("nude women", "Gay marriage" and so on). Just have a look around the world you will see that being naked is quite a natural thing especially in most of (the left) "primitive" tribes. Showing sexual attributes of the human body (or not) is much more cultural than anything else - or would you claim that all these tribes are "immoral"? There are even sexually explicit "religious parties" like this one in Japan.
But that is just a side aspect, my real question when it comes to moral is: Why do you always trigger on sexual issues (that don't do any harm to others) and not on violence, oppression, and disinformation that are the real plagues in this world ?
And talking about violence: Would you say that that Mohamed's attack(!) and killing of the complete Banu Qurayza tribe was a particularly moral act?
I think that here we have a clear case were "religious justification" (= " Sorry folks, Gabriel/God told me, so I had no choice") is (ab-)used to commit immoral doing. Once you open the door to this kind of logic, criminal acts like this: Aum or even that: Manson can be easily justified. This is why (for me at least) the man made Universal Declaration of Human Rights is far above the religiously motivated ones.

Airmano


Edited by airmano - 02 August 2014 at 6:44am
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thuwn
 
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Quote thuwn Replybullet Posted: 02 August 2014 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Yes indeed the Sun and the Moon are swimming in their orbits, that is around the Earth. This is because the Earth is stationary and the central focus of our Universe.
You only can see what your house look like once you step out of it. You won't know about this life fully until you leave this life. You won't know this earth state position until you step out of it. This is logical method. But yet there are some people, who, by experience and skills can understand the state of the heavenly bodies by mathematical calculations. The moon size is not the size of dinner plate nor the sun (Al Ghazzali style in explaining). And I myself may add they are very far away too.

- And [even] if We opened to them a gate from the heaven and they continued therein to ascend,

- They would say, "Our eyes have only been dazzled. Rather, we are a people affected by magic."

- And We have placed within the heaven great stars and have beautified it for the observers. (Al Hijr 14-16)

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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 02 August 2014 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by abuayisha

Yes, but where are these "most basic moral values" derived if not from God?

From humanity, of course.  Do you never stop to wonder why we have such a diversity of religious beliefs, and yet moral values such as honesty, respect for others, peace and tolerance are so universal?  We don't need gods or superstitions to tell us what's right and what's wrong.
 
God has been removed from secular education, therefore right and wrong simply becomes relative terms. So when a college professors allows for a sex act to take place in his classroom to illustrate a point, is he wrong? Says who? Or when a nude women is placed in front of the art class for students to draw.

Well, I suppose you would have to ask the students.  If they are offended, or if they were misled about the nature of the class when they signed up for it, then it was wrong.  Otherwise, who was harmed by it?  Researchers do study sexual behaviour, and artists do paint nude subjects.  If you are morally offended by such things, then you have every right not to be involved; but you don't have a right to impose those moral scruples on others.

Frankly, it doesn't have to be my religion, just an acknowledgement of a moral compass - God, from whom values and morals spring forth.

Why can't humanity be the source of our moral compass?  Frankly, if God does exist, He can look after Himself.  I am more concerned with the welfare of my fellow human beings.  That is the basis of my morality.
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 02 August 2014 at 8:11pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

The modern world would have been a savage world had ti not been for the morality that was imposed to the Western World by the Christian church. Even in the Dark Ages the world was about to sink into a hell hole but was held together by the Christian morals.

On the contrary, it was humanity that imposed morality on the Christian church, not the other way around.  Just as humanity imposed morality on every other faith, because humans are innately moral.  They can be blinded by ideology, as for instance during the Crusades or in Israel/Palestine, but in their hearts they know that love is better than hate and peace is better than violence.

Sounds funny I know to see me defending Christian morals.

Not at all.  It's how I know that you and abuayisha are fundamentally good people.  You would rather have peace and goodwill, even at the cost of ideological purity.
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 03 August 2014 at 2:23am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

On the contrary, it was humanity that imposed morality on the Christian church, not the other way around.  Just as humanity imposed morality on every other faith, because humans are innately moral.  They can be blinded by ideology, as for instance during the Crusades or in Israel/Palestine, but in their hearts they know that love is better than hate and peace is better than violence.


NO NO NO morality is taught by God Almighty and it has been handed down to human beings from the beginning of time.

Humanity at it's core is fundamentally evil and it is God who corrects this by sending down revelations which teaches us to live a holy and a life that is pleasing to Him, this includes morals of what is right and wrong.
For example, in the Qur'an God Almighty tells us that certain family members are forbidden for marriage, if we had not received this guidance then humanity would sink to the lower depths of incest.

I would say the same without Christian teachings.


Originally posted by Ron Webb


Not at all.  It's how I know that you and abuayisha are fundamentally good people.  You would rather have peace and goodwill, even at the cost of ideological purity.


Only the fear of God makes people good, otherwise there is a chance that a person without this fear of God would do anything including murder.

Peace and good will is also a teaching from God Almighty. :)
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Quote marcello Replybullet Posted: 05 August 2014 at 11:50am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

NO NO NO morality is taught by God Almighty and it has been handed down to human beings from the beginning of time.


Let's take a look at just a few of the moral teachings handed down by your imaginary "God Almighty":

An uncircumcised boy is to be abandoned by his parents and community. Genesis 17:14

Whoever works, or even kindles a fire, on the Sabbath "shall be put to death." Exodus 35:2-3

The Israelites should make slaves out of their heathen neighbors and their families. Leviticus 25:44-46

Stone everyone to death who has religious beliefs that are different from your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. John 15:6

Allah turned the Sabbath-breaking Jews into apes. Quran 2:65-66

Don't be friends with non-Muslims. They all hate you and want to ruin you. Quran 3:118

Unbelievers will be tormented forever with fire. When their skin is burned off, a fresh skin will be provided. Quran 4:56

Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts. Nearly all of them are treacherous. Quran 5:12-13







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