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Quranexplorer
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Quote Quranexplorer Replybullet Posted: 01 June 2014 at 11:00am
Al-E-Imran 3:190-191: Lo! In the creation of the heavens and the earth and (in) the difference of night and day are tokens (of His Sovereignty) for men of understanding, (190) Such as remember Allah, standing, sitting, and reclining, and consider the creation of the heavens and the earth, (and say): Our Lord! Thou createdst not this in vain. Glory be to Thee! Preserve us from the doom of Fire. (191)

Originally posted by airmano


To come to the main point: I openly admit that there are many things that I/we don't know. I also realize that we may never know the ultimate truth. It may not even exist. I go along with the (islamic) scientist Averroes who claimed that Logic combined with our senses are the [only] tool to get closer to the truth. I prefer this uncertainty to the [in my eyes] rather silly statement „We have the truth“ (just google „Islam, truth“ and you'll see). To me the claim of holding the [ultimate] truth just looks like bare ignorance.


So you are in a situation of uncertainty with no definite answers and you have seen neither science nor your reason can give you full answers. But a sincere approach to Quran can, the choice is yours whether to remain in dark or seek the light and of course with Allah's will:

Al-Maeda 5:16: Whereby Allah guideth him who seeketh His good pleasure unto paths of peace. He bringeth them out of darkness unto light by His decree, and guideth them unto a straight path.
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Quote Quranexplorer Replybullet Posted: 01 June 2014 at 12:16pm
Originally posted by schmikbob

why do so many religions attribute such human qualities to their deities? a God that requires that I worship and believe in his greatness or burn in eternal hellfire is not acting like a deity at all but rather like a human which, actually makes sense, since man's capability to create things in his own image is unmatched.


What human qualities you can attribute to Allah after going through the below verses:

Al-Baqara 2:255: Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtaketh Him. Unto Him belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedeth with Him save by His leave? He knoweth that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He will. His throne includeth the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous.

Ya-Seen 36:54-64: This day no soul is wronged in aught; nor are ye requited aught save what ye used to do. (54) Lo! those who merit paradise this day are happily employed, (55) They and their wives, in pleasant shade, on thrones reclining; (56) Theirs the fruit (of their good deeds) and theirs (all) that they ask; (57) The word from a Merciful Lord (for them) is: Peace! (58) But avaunt ye, O ye guilty, this day! (59) Did I not charge you, O ye sons of Adam, that ye worship not the devil - Lo! he is your open foe! - (60) But that ye worship Me? That was the right path. (61) Yet he hath led astray of you a great multitude. Had ye then no sense? (62) This is hell which ye were promised (if ye followed him). (63) Burn therein this day for that ye disbelieved. (64)

Al-Anaam 6:160:Whoso bringeth a good deed will receive tenfold the like thereof, while whoso bringeth an ill-deed will be awarded but the like thereof; and they will not be wronged.
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Quote Quranexplorer Replybullet Posted: 01 June 2014 at 8:52pm
First of all, I am happy we have nobody here using science to deny the existence of Allah.
Originally posted by Ron Webb

If you are starting from the assumption that the purpose of science is to "appreciate the grandeur of the creator", then you are not doing science at all.

No such assumptions, Quran among its many miraculous characteristics has a number of scientific references beyond its time and science as a mere human tool should be looked at as a facilitating tool for man to appreciate the creator along with these references.
Originally posted by Ron Webb

No scientist would ever claim that we "know it all". Only religion could be that arrogant.
Good that we are on same page on science,but often people come up with this illusion that anything and everything should be testified by science for them to accept it, I am happy you accept it is not the case.Islam is not arrogant on this, it teaches man to accept his limitation and looks up to Allah as the only “know it all”.
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Whereas religion is like a fish claiming the existence of a magical ocean where they will live blissfully forever after their deaths.The scientist fish, on the other hand, would respond something like, "Well, we have no direct evidence one way or the other about this hypothetical ocean; but if it did exist, there is no reason to suppose that it is anything like what your religion describes, nor is there any evidence that we would go there after our deaths. Moreover, if we did, our best cosmological models suggest that such an ocean would be far too salty for us to live; and if there were other creatures there, at least some of them would be a million times bigger than us and would probably gobble us up without even noticing."Which fish would be closer to the truth? .
And there it is not up to this religious fish to convince the scientist fish because the limited free will to make a choice is already given by Allah and he leaves the scientist fishes to wander in its uncertainties with ifs, buts, probabilities and models till the day of resurrection.
An - Naba: 78: 39-40: That is the True Day. So whoso will should seek recourse unto his Lord. (39) Lo! We warn you of a doom at hand, a day whereon a man will look on that which his own hands have sent before, and the disbeliever will cry: "Would that I were dust!" (40)
Originally posted by Ron Webb

You're right. There will always be plenty of stuff we can't explain. I can't explain it, and neither can you. The difference is that I am humble enough to admit I can't explain it. I don't feel any need to make up nonsense to cover up my ignorance. You talk later about "man's pride", but you have it backwards. The prideful thing is to claim knowledge of things that you cannot possibly know.
Even I don’t make the claim of explaining it all and going a step further I use my senses to appreciate the ultimate creator whose numerous signs are around us including the unity of design in this universe and above all the Quran- a book full of wisdom:

Al-Baqara: 2: 2-7: This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil). (2) Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them; (3) And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter. (4) These depend on guidance from their Lord. These are the successful. (5) As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. (6) Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom. (7)
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Quote airmano Replybullet Posted: 02 June 2014 at 6:24am
Well,

pouring more and more hellfire menaces over the non-believers won't congeal me in horror.
In clear terms: Quran citations are only convincing for those who do believe in Islam.
To impress me (regarding the Quran) you'd have to argue in logical terms or at least in good examples/comparisons.
Trying to prove that the Quran conveys ultimate truth on the basis of a verse stating that the sun heats and the moon doesn't (as you did in the other thread) is definitely not a good example.

Airmano

Edited by airmano - 02 June 2014 at 8:46am
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Quote schmikbob Replybullet Posted: 02 June 2014 at 6:41am
Quranexplorer, if you are incapable of seeing the human qualities in these verses, then I am incapable of helping you. Of course I already knew that as you simply repeat the same verses again and again in the hope that this will somehow make it all true.
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 02 June 2014 at 11:17am
This thread proves the point that talking to people without guidance is like talking to a brick wall.

Completely pointless (unless you have the time and patience).
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 02 June 2014 at 5:02pm
Originally posted by Quranexplorer

No such assumptions, Quran among its many miraculous characteristics has a number of scientific references beyond its time and science as a mere human tool should be looked at as a facilitating tool for man to appreciate the creator along with these references.

Yes, I've seen most of those "scientific references".  They are either intuitively obvious or laughably vague.  But again, you're starting from the assumption that the Quran is the truth, and you're trying to use science to prove it.  That's backwards.

Islam is not arrogant on this, it teaches man to accept his limitation and looks up to Allah as the only “know it all”.

If you asked me how life first came into existence, I would start by saying frankly "I don't know."  I might then offer some speculations based on what little we do know about evolution, biochemistry, etc., but I would be very clear that these are just speculation.

If I asked you, on the other hand, you would tell me that God created it.  You would state that opinion as a fact, quite confidently and unequivocally, despite having no evidence to back it up (beyond its having been written down in a book, whose authenticity you have no evidence for).

That, in a nutshell, is the difference.  When I don't know something, I say "I don't know."  When theists don't know something, they say "God did it."
 
And there it is not up to this religious fish to convince the scientist fish because the limited free will to make a choice is already given by Allah and he leaves the scientist fishes to wander in its uncertainties with ifs, buts, probabilities and models till the day of resurrection.

Ermm You totally missed the point.  The "religious fish" is wrong.  He just made up a story because it sounded comforting, but it was nothing more than a fantasy.  Just like yours, and just as wrong.
 
Al-Baqara: 2: 2-7: This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil). (2) Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them; (3) And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter. (4) These depend on guidance from their Lord. These are the successful. (5) As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. (6) Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom. (7)

This is your "loving" God, who deliberately blinds his creatures to the (alleged) truth and then punishes them for not believing it.
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Quranexplorer Replybullet Posted: 02 June 2014 at 8:14pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

This thread proves the point that talking to people without guidance is like talking to a brick wall.Completely pointless (unless you have the time and patience).

I tend to agree with you here, but the point is such discussions really show how fragile the arguments are of disbelievers trying to protect a castle of cards with smoke screens of science and reason. Alhamdulillah I think I can manage with patience, but time is really an issue :)
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