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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2005 at 7:14pm

community:

I see your huckstering on behalf of crusaders / Taghoots  based on out of context ayaas which is preposterous and disgrace to this discussion group. I don’t know your background and don’t care tonow but your agenda is obviously designed on colonial attitudes. Your underhanded Qadiani style Fatwas can easily be ripped apart by any knowledgeable member. 

 Read what 39th US President Carter has to say on what is going on !!
President Carter blows away all of perverse polemic. State your stand clearly instead of abusing god’s words.

This isn't the real America

By Jimmy Carter, JIMMY CARTER was the 39th president of the United States. His newest book is "Our Endangered Values: America's Moral Crisis," published this month by Simon & Schuster.

IN RECENT YEARS, I have become increasingly concerned by a host of radical government policies that now threaten many basic principles espoused by all previous administrations, Democratic and Republican.

These include the rudimentary American commitment to peace, economic and social justice, civil liberties, our environment and human rights.

Also endangered are our historic commitments to providing citizens with truthful information, treating dissenting voices and beliefs with respect, state and local autonomy and fiscal responsibility.

At the same time, our political leaders have declared independence from the restraints of international organizations and have disavowed long-standing global agreements — including agreements on nuclear arms, control of biological weapons and the international system of justice.

Instead of our tradition of espousing peace as a national priority unless our security is directly threatened, we have proclaimed a policy of "preemptive war," an unabridged right to attack other nations unilaterally to change an unsavory regime or for other purposes. When there are serious differences with other nations, we brand them as international pariahs and refuse to permit direct discussions to resolve disputes.

Regardless of the costs, there are determined efforts by top U.S. leaders to exert American imperial dominance throughout the world.

These revolutionary policies have been orchestrated by those who believe that our nation's tremendous power and influence should not be internationally constrained. Even with our troops involved in combat and America facing the threat of additional terrorist attacks, our declaration of "You are either with us or against us!" has replaced the forming of alliances based on a clear comprehension of mutual interests, including the threat of terrorism.

Another disturbing realization is that, unlike during other times of national crisis, the burden of conflict is now concentrated exclusively on the few heroic men and women sent back repeatedly to fight in the quagmire of Iraq. The rest of our nation has not been asked to make any sacrifice, and every effort has been made to conceal or minimize public awareness of casualties.

Instead of cherishing our role as the great champion of human rights, we now find civil liberties and personal privacy grossly violated under some extreme provisions of the Patriot Act.

Of even greater concern is that the U.S. has repudiated the Geneva accords and espoused the use of torture in Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, and secretly through proxy regimes elsewhere with the so-called extraordinary rendition program. It is embarrassing to see the president and vice president insisting that the CIA should be free to perpetrate "cruel, inhumane or degrading treatment or punishment" on people in U.S. custody.

Instead of reducing America's reliance on nuclear weapons and their further proliferation, we have insisted on our right (and that of others) to retain our arsenals, expand them, and therefore abrogate or derogate almost all nuclear arms control agreements negotiated during the last 50 years. We have now become a prime culprit in global nuclear proliferation. America also has abandoned the prohibition of "first use" of nuclear weapons against nonnuclear nations, and is contemplating the previously condemned deployment of weapons in space.

Protection of the environment has fallen by the wayside because of government subservience to political pressure from the oil industry and other powerful lobbying groups. The last five years have brought continued lowering of pollution standards at home and almost universal condemnation of our nation's global environmental policies.

Our government has abandoned fiscal responsibility by unprecedented favors to the rich, while neglecting America's working families. Members of Congress have increased their own pay by $30,000 per year since freezing the minimum wage at $5.15 per hour (the lowest among industrialized nations).

I am extremely concerned by a fundamentalist shift in many houses of worship and in government, as church and state have become increasingly intertwined in ways previously thought unimaginable.

As the world's only superpower, America should be seen as the unswerving champion of peace, freedom and human rights. Our country should be the focal point around which other nations can gather to combat threats to international security and to enhance the quality of our common environment. We should be in the forefront of providing human assistance to people in need.

It is time for the deep and disturbing political divisions within our country to be substantially healed, with Americans united in a common commitment to revive and nourish the historic political and moral values that we have espoused during the last 230 years.


 

Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Quote Community Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2005 at 9:31pm

The first mistake you make is to label me as Qadiani like, i am sure you label yourself a certain way and are content with that label, but i however do not aprove of being labeled because that is the first hostile move one can make.

I will tell you in clear language where i stand in all of this, and i hope atleast some will understand my views if not you.

On one extreem side you have the expansionalist muslims who see it as their religious duty to take over the world by any means necissary. They have been preaching against the west for years and have started commiting terrorist attacks against the west and western targets, specifically the United States of America.

On the other extreem side you have those who react to this trend of expansionalism by these muslims.

One feels threatened by the other, and this fear is on both sides. The west sees itself as attacked and threatened by these muslims through observing their preaching and actions, and the muslims fear the west by grabbing back in time to the history of the crusades as a justification for feeling threatened and by holding to certain conspiracy theories and a negative interpertation of political and social realities in the arab and muslim world.

Now i am sure you have an idea of what the real reality is but for the people who trust their government or their religious leaders each have their own view on the reality.

"The west"

They hold democracy as the best way of governance except for few small groups in western society, they see democracy as a better way of governance then lets say monarchies and fundamentalist regimes, they have a bad experience with both of these forms of government in their history and so they do not wish to go back to such opressive forms of governing. They see islamic extreemism as a threat for obvious reasons.

"The islamic expansionalist movement"

They see the injustice in their lands as a result of western colonialism, they do not stop to think how this colonialism happened while once they were themselves colonizers. Ofcourse they see their side as righteous in doing so, because they came to free people from opression and gave them freedom, religious freedom. After all the prophet and the faithful fought for this same reason, to be able to practise the faith and call to it without being persecuted for doing so. What we should ask ourselves is how could Europe colonize the islamic and arab world? the answer would be for the islamic expansionalists: the corruption of the leadership in these lands. There where dictatorships obviously set up all over the islamic and arab world, because armies of dictators usually are very weak. Why? because a dictator rules through the fear of the people for this dictator and his esteblishment. A dictator fears losing power so what he does is encircle himself with what he preceives as loyal people and thus soldiers will be under officers who work in the best interest of the dictator, and these officers on their turn will rule through fear with the men under them, in this kind of military that acts out of fear for their officers(set up by the regime because they are favorable to them) instead of respect and higher moral values will prove very ineffective in a defensive battle, these soldiers will not wish to die for the cause of these opressors and their esteblishment so they will not be able to be effective as a defensive force. Take Saddam and his military as an example. An army of a dictator in the world of today would not even prove effective in a offensive war anymore because they have become more and more limited in their area of control. The issue that is threatening is the nuclear bombs that are around and could possibly fall into the hand of such dictators. So...that's why there is such a thing as a pre emptive war, it comes out of a fear. I am sure you can understand this fear when there is clearly groups of muslims preaching against the west and do not shun the use of terrorism, and you may see terrorism and the anti western movements found in the arab and islamic world as a western invention but what are you doing about it?

You can not blame shaitaan for your own choices, you are responsible for yourself.

The bottom line is this, stand for justice even against your ownselves and do not let the hate of another people make you serve from being just and truthful.

Misplaced fear truely makes people unjust, if one fears losing power he will be opressive and killing anyone he sees as a threat, had he feared Allah alone instead of losing power and realized all power belongs to Allah, the messenger and the faithful as Allah clearly states in the koran, he would not have sought after power and certainly not killed and opressed others to keep it, he would have realized that Allah does not love the unjust and that He will ask him concerning all his deeds and actions made in this life. Same goes for the fear of losing wealth, one who has this fear will do injustice to others and even take the others share just so that he can stay wealthy, basically fearing anything or anyone other then Allah is unjust and makes people unjust. Fear Allah alone so that you may prosper.



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Quote Shamil Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2005 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by Community

Just for the record, the west did not do much when they saw a fundamentalist regime being democratically elected in Algeria, this was because of their strong anti western rethoric,

You see, akhi, here you contradict yourself. For earlier in this thread you said:

"The west sees democracy as the best and most just system of governance and it will never work against a government that is democratic."

But the US did in fact fail to do anything to support a democratically elected government in Algeria because it was not in its national interest.

And this has been my point all along. The US only supports democracies that will be pro-US. Otherwise, democracy will not be a concern for the US. This is why the US devised the overthrow of the democratically elected Mossadegh government in Iran: in fact, in that instance Mossadegh was not particularly anti-US; he nationalized the oil industries to the detriment of US companies. And since a democratically elected Iraqi government would most likely be hostile to the US, the US will not allow democracy there.

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Quote Community Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2005 at 10:21pm
Originally posted by Shamil

Originally posted by Community

Just for the record, the west did not do much when they saw a fundamentalist regime being democratically elected in Algeria, this was because of their strong anti western rethoric,

You see, akhi, here you contradict yourself. For earlier in this thread you said:

"The west sees democracy as the best and most just system of governance and it will never work against a government that is democratic."

But the US did in fact fail to do anything to support a democratically elected government in Algeria because it was not in its national interest.

And this has been my point all along. The US only supports democracies that will be pro-US. Otherwise, democracy will not be a concern for the US. This is why the US devised the overthrow of the democratically elected Mossadegh government in Iran: in fact, in that instance Mossadegh was not particularly anti-US; he nationalized the oil industries to the detriment of US companies. And since a democratically elected Iraqi government would most likely be hostile to the US, the US will not allow democracy there.

I get your point, i must add that neither did France or other european nations support the democratically elected islamic fundamentalist government of Algeria.

And yes i do not think anyone would get support from the "homefront" for backing what profiles itself as an enemy.

And yes when trying to secure oneself against loss in wealth or life can result in injustice too, mistakes are made on daily basis by individuals and by nations. The thing with a "super power" is that it's mistakes have a greater effect in the world.



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Quote Community Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2005 at 10:25pm
You must understand that policy making is a very hard thing to do when the guidelines are set up by people of a certain government. Especially with a complex region like the middle east. Try yourself to make up a foreign policy in respect of the middle east, and then try to imagine having to agree upon that with the different individuals who represent groups in policy making.
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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2005 at 11:27pm
Originally posted by Shamil

The contracts for rebuilding Iraq were all awarded to American companies without any bidding. The companies simply stated a price and they got it. Iraqis were given no chance to participate. Halliburton, whom the vice president once worked for, reported profits of over 130 percent this past year as a result. Bechtel received billions for reconstruction, none of which they have begun.

Those are only two examples but that's the pattern.



If this were wholly true, as you claim, then how did the Iraqi economy grow by over 50% in 2004 and slated for double digits again for 2005 and why is Iraqi unemployment down dramatically as well?


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Bruce
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2005 at 11:40pm

You know there is a search option on here, just type in Carl Marx and go read your previous posts, i do not feel the urge to read through all your bitter tasting junk.

You attributed something to me in your post. I know what I have said about Marx. I don't treat anyone and everyone as Allah's messenger or "Ameers" just out of sheer awe of their might or anything else.

It is now your responsibility to substantiate your words or apologise to me unconditionally on this board.

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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 14 November 2005 at 11:41pm
Originally posted by Whisper

The Connections between Saddam and terrorist groups like Hamas, and al Aqsa Martyr's brigade and most notoriously al Qaeda,

If you could prove that you should be granted the Medal of Honour because even your President could not prove anything of this sort despite all his attempts.



This is not true...Bush, while supporting the conclusions of the bipartisan 9/11 commission report, never backed away, nor should he or any of us from the obvious connections between Saddam and al Qaeda in the past.  Are you saying that all the intel agencies are always wrong...that's ludicrous...just because the overreacted to the immediate and imminent potential Saddam had for WMD in the wake of the 9/11 slaughter doesn't mean that those intel groups are somehow always wrong!  In fact the opposite is true, they are consistently right and especially as they use human intel..

You're simply wrong to assert that Saddam, his military and IIS didn't have connections with al Qaeda at the highest levels - because their interactions for 12 years prior to 2003 (at least) proved that...

What was never and may never be proven, and where Saddam, I think, was trying to be utterly careful (vs. his lack of caution regarding weapons violations and snubbing the UN, the international community and general murdering and raping Iraqis for 25 years, was in staying well off the radar with AQ when they pulled off the 9/11 job.  No, his operational involvement was never and may never be proven.  But it hasn't been dismissable either - and this is (which is supported by his long involvement with al Qaeda throughout the nineties in both Iraq and Sudan, et al, is what people like you want badly to dismiss.

How's dismissing these facts coming for you Sasha?
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