IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: American Troops in Iraq

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rami
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Posted: 13 November 2005 at 3:19pm

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Community the Christians in those time were also not fighting muslims for there faith when allah revealed that verse, yet allah said do not take them as your awliyah which is what is occuring now in Iraq.

The Americans are forcing there form of Government on the Iraqi People something haram in islam, shariah law is the only law in islam not some man made rules we are not the standard of morality Allah is.

Dont use one verse in the Quran to contradict another verse Allah does not contradict himself.

Edited by rami

Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.

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Shamil

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Posted: 13 November 2005 at 3:54pm

Originally posted by Community

Shamil, all praise is to Allah lord of the worlds, you do not need to regret the past brother, let us both start from here and work for betterment of ourselves before Allah and with this better the world as a whole, let us strive to gain victory over our ignorance and our intollerance and anger that comes out of this ignorance. This is what i seek and i assume you seek the same from what you just showed me, so i welcome you and in no way am i offended by your comments.

Jazakallah Khairun, akhi.

OK, here is my perspective. All states operate in their own self-interest. Clearly it is in the self-interest of the United States to control the oil in the Persian Gulf. Petroleum from the former Soviet Union will never be assured and there is only a fraction there of the Persian Gulf supplies.

However, the government of the US does not see democracy in Iraq as being in their self-interest. A truly democratically elected government in Iraq would be virulently anti-Israel and therefore anti-US. The petroleum supplies would not be assured.

Additionally, there is ample evidence that the United States will in fact subvert democracy when a democratic movement is not in its self interest. The CIA assisted overthrow of the Mossadegh government in the 1950s, the US assisted overthrow of the Allende government in the 1970s, and most recently Bush's friendly overtures to Ilham Aliev in Azerbaijan, who was elected in an election that was unanimously declared neither free not fair by all respected international election observers, are only three examples of the US acting against democracy when it was in its national interest.

This is not to say the US is worse than any other nation. In fact, this is exactly how one would expect any nation-state to behave, and in some ways the US has been less violent than other powerful nations in similar circumstances. The Soviet Union and the current Russian Federation have committed atrocious acts against democratic states.

So, based upon this, it is completely logical to assume the United States will install a government compliant to its will in order to assure a steady flow of oil from Iraq. It is also logical to assume, based upon US actions in other states such as Chile, where tens of thousands were slaughtered by the American-backed Pinochet, and Vietnam, where abominable weapons were used against peaceful villages, the the American government will have no real concern for the people of Iraq as long as its leaders supply the US with oil and will, as in past wars, use horrific weapons against the population of Iraq if it is required to achieve their goals.

Edited by Shamil

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Posted: 13 November 2005 at 5:16pm

It is true that nations operate from their own self-interest, it is in the self-interest of the US, the west, the east and the world in general that the middle east is stable and preferably at peace with eachother.

Our opinions may differ on how to achieve a stable middle east, but one option the west does not consider is the anihilation of the state of Israel and does not aprove of regimes that use hate and anger against this nation. The west sees democracy as the best and most just system of governance and it will never work against a government that is democratic. I remind you that there are arabs in the Israeli government and arab israeli's, these arabs are mostly ignored by the media because they can not be used in the propaganda, there is even a community of jews and muslims who live together in Israel and they are seen as traitors by both sides, but i believe the way forward through understanding and respect. You must understand that with this world becoming ever more populated things such intollerance will have to sease to exist.

Through out history we find this: that those who do not improve on justice are ruined, look at the Pharao who refused to improve on justice in respect of the childeren of Israel, or the pagans of Mecca who refused to give the prophet and the faithful religious freedom and thus killed and persecuted them for their faith, or the kings of the middle ages who treated their workers as slaves and their slaves as less then cattle, and lived in luxury while their own people starved, they are no more. In this is a lesson to be learned, that the only way forward is to improve on justice, and those who fail sease to exist.

Wether the destruction of the unjust comes through a natural desaster or another people or...... it is by the will of Allah. Because the righteous will inherrit the earth, and Allah is The Inherritor and His righteous are ofcourse those who wish to better themselves and the world around them, through being as just as they can be, thus injustice will gradually come to an end. The threat is real, and the threat is from His side, improve on justice or sease to exist...this has always been the reality.

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Whisper
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Posted: 13 November 2005 at 8:23pm

your mother may not have infused hatred in you, but would she be proud of you? who infused hatred in you then? the one you spoke about saying:"it is a shame that they do not recognize Karl Marx as a messenger?" or the one who convinced you Carl Marx was a messenger from Allah

Who claimed Karl Marx is a messenger of Allah? Show me. I need a laugh or a sigh on your attempt now to twist posts.

The west sees democracy as the best and most just system of governance and it will never work against a government that is democratic. What happened to your west when the ALGERIANS went DEMOCRATIC and won an election with 92% vote? What was "west" doing then?

Is it only Arabs who are intollerant? West is a model of tollerance?

We don't mind difference of opinion in any field. The only thing I won't stand is someone, anyone, not just you, twisting ayaats for your own purpose - hiding behind a page from the Qur'an.

Or,telling the Indians that Brit rule was the best medicine they had, that tea with milk and they learnt to speak - as if they didn't speak with each other before the Ingleesh came.

Or, telling an Afghan to move on. You have every right to move on or do whatever you fancy if your country is occupied by the US or anyone else for that matter.

You hold no right ever to tell an Afghan to tolerate idotic Amreeki (the word is Amreeki - there is no Ameer in it) occupation. Best for you to keep your fear of the US might to yourself. For me, the US lost the day it started to think its Gaad or some extra Additional Deputy Gaad.

Just my advice, don't twist ayaats. You can twist America to any combination, but keep from twisting any single ayaat from the Quran.

Now tell me when did I say Karl was a mesenger of Allah?

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sms2003

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Posted: 14 November 2005 at 10:19am

Thank you to everyone who voiced their opinions about the American troops in Iraq. You have all helped a lot with the progress of my project. There were many different perspectives and I have to say that they were all enlightening. Some things were mentioned that I had never even thought to consider before.

I appreciate all of your help! It was great to get to know the opinions of people other than those in the U.S.

With sincere gratitude- sms2003 & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp;

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Whisper
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Posted: 14 November 2005 at 2:02pm

with regard to those who fight you not

The emphasis is on FIGHT YOU NOT my dearest fake Maulana. You interpret it to mean Great Amreeka obviously with AMEER put in by you.

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Whisper
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Posted: 14 November 2005 at 2:21pm

Use them for target practice you say? you have a big mouth and i am sure a mother who has a son in the military and reads your words would wish you out of this world, how dare you joke around about killing.

I am sure you are enough to worry about all the soldiers' mothers. I hold no desire fr any such fancy words. They are more than welcome to wish me out of anywhere, their sons are doing the job of killing as many people as they desire - list them as Al-qaeda or Talibaan.

I am not some half-backe ayaat twister, I fear not the US, I don't treat US as a Deputy Gaad or something.

You have still to show us WHO said Karl was a messenger of Allah. Or, apologise to me unconditionally for such malicious slur.

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Whisper
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Posted: 14 November 2005 at 2:27pm

Now i really am convinced people under Saddam said prayers like these don't you think?

If they did then why are approx 71% of them now praying to get rid of the Americans?

And, why do 45% believe it's okay to strike the occupiers?

Coalition Forces survey - not Al-Qaeda's

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Author	Message
rami Male Islam Senior Member Senior Member Joined: 01 March 2000 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2550	Posted: 13 November 2005 at 3:19pm
	Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem Community the Christians in those time were also not fighting muslims for there faith when allah revealed that verse, yet allah said do not take them as your awliyah which is what is occuring now in Iraq. The Americans are forcing there form of Government on the Iraqi People something haram in islam, shariah law is the only law in islam not some man made rules we are not the standard of morality Allah is. Dont use one verse in the Quran to contradict another verse Allah does not contradict himself. Edited by rami
	Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Shamil Senior Member Joined: 27 October 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 187	Posted: 13 November 2005 at 3:54pm
	*Originally posted by Community* Shamil, all praise is to Allah lord of the worlds, you do not need to regret the past brother, let us both start from here and work for betterment of ourselves before Allah and with this better the world as a whole, let us strive to gain victory over our ignorance and our intollerance and anger that comes out of this ignorance. This is what i seek and i assume you seek the same from what you just showed me, so i welcome you and in no way am i offended by your comments. Jazakallah Khairun, akhi. OK, here is my perspective. All states operate in their own self-interest. Clearly it is in the self-interest of the United States to control the oil in the Persian Gulf. Petroleum from the former Soviet Union will never be assured and there is only a fraction there of the Persian Gulf supplies. However, the government of the US does not see democracy in Iraq as being in their self-interest. A truly democratically elected government in Iraq would be virulently anti-Israel and therefore anti-US. The petroleum supplies would not be assured. Additionally, there is ample evidence that the United States will in fact subvert democracy when a democratic movement is not in its self interest. The CIA assisted overthrow of the Mossadegh government in the 1950s, the US assisted overthrow of the Allende government in the 1970s, and most recently Bush's friendly overtures to Ilham Aliev in Azerbaijan, who was elected in an election that was unanimously declared neither free not fair by all respected international election observers, are only three examples of the US acting against democracy when it was in its national interest. This is not to say the US is worse than any other nation. In fact, this is exactly how one would expect any nation-state to behave, and in some ways the US has been less violent than other powerful nations in similar circumstances. The Soviet Union and the current Russian Federation have committed atrocious acts against democratic states. So, based upon this, it is completely logical to assume the United States will install a government compliant to its will in order to assure a steady flow of oil from Iraq. It is also logical to assume, based upon US actions in other states such as Chile, where tens of thousands were slaughtered by the American-backed Pinochet, and Vietnam, where abominable weapons were used against peaceful villages, the the American government will have no real concern for the people of Iraq as long as its leaders supply the US with oil and will, as in past wars, use horrific weapons against the population of Iraq if it is required to achieve their goals. Edited by Shamil
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Community Guest Group Joined: 19 May 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1135	Posted: 13 November 2005 at 5:16pm
	It is true that nations operate from their own self-interest, it is in the self-interest of the US, the west, the east and the world in general that the middle east is stable and preferably at peace with eachother. Our opinions may differ on how to achieve a stable middle east, but one option the west does not consider is the anihilation of the state of Israel and does not aprove of regimes that use hate and anger against this nation. The west sees democracy as the best and most just system of governance and it will never work against a government that is democratic. I remind you that there are arabs in the Israeli government and arab israeli's, these arabs are mostly ignored by the media because they can not be used in the propaganda, there is even a community of jews and muslims who live together in Israel and they are seen as traitors by both sides, but i believe the way forward through understanding and respect. You must understand that with this world becoming ever more populated things such intollerance will have to sease to exist. Through out history we find this: that those who do not improve on justice are ruined, look at the Pharao who refused to improve on justice in respect of the childeren of Israel, or the pagans of Mecca who refused to give the prophet and the faithful religious freedom and thus killed and persecuted them for their faith, or the kings of the middle ages who treated their workers as slaves and their slaves as less then cattle, and lived in luxury while their own people starved, they are no more. In this is a lesson to be learned, that the only way forward is to improve on justice, and those who fail sease to exist. Wether the destruction of the unjust comes through a natural desaster or another people or...... it is by the will of Allah. Because the righteous will inherrit the earth, and Allah is The Inherritor and His righteous are ofcourse those who wish to better themselves and the world around them, through being as just as they can be, thus injustice will gradually come to an end. The threat is real, and the threat is from His side, improve on justice or sease to exist...this has always been the reality.
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Whisper Male Other Senior Member Joined: 25 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4752	Posted: 13 November 2005 at 8:23pm
	your mother may not have infused hatred in you, but would she be proud of you? who infused hatred in you then? the one you spoke about saying:"it is a shame that they do not recognize Karl Marx as a messenger?" or the one who convinced you Carl Marx was a messenger from Allah Who claimed Karl Marx is a messenger of Allah? Show me. I need a laugh or a sigh on your attempt now to twist posts. The west sees democracy as the best and most just system of governance and it will never work against a government that is democratic. What happened to your west when the ALGERIANS went DEMOCRATIC and won an election with 92% vote? What was "west" doing then? Is it only Arabs who are intollerant? West is a model of tollerance? We don't mind difference of opinion in any field. The only thing I won't stand is someone, anyone, not just you, twisting ayaats for your own purpose - hiding behind a page from the Qur'an. Or,telling the Indians that Brit rule was the best medicine they had, that tea with milk and they learnt to speak - as if they didn't speak with each other before the Ingleesh came. Or, telling an Afghan to move on. You have every right to move on or do whatever you fancy if your country is occupied by the US or anyone else for that matter. You hold no right ever to tell an Afghan to tolerate idotic Amreeki (the word is Amreeki - there is no Ameer in it) occupation. Best for you to keep your fear of the US might to yourself. For me, the US lost the day it started to think its Gaad or some extra Additional Deputy Gaad. Just my advice, don't twist ayaats. You can twist America to any combination, but keep from twisting any single ayaat from the Quran. Now tell me when did I say Karl was a mesenger of Allah?
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sms2003 Starter Joined: 10 November 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 3	Posted: 14 November 2005 at 10:19am
	Thank you to everyone who voiced their opinions about the American troops in Iraq. You have all helped a lot with the progress of my project. There were many different perspectives and I have to say that they were all enlightening. Some things were mentioned that I had never even thought to consider before. I appreciate all of your help! It was great to get to know the opinions of people other than those in the U.S. With sincere gratitude- sms2003 & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp; & nbsp;
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Whisper Male Other Senior Member Joined: 25 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4752	Posted: 14 November 2005 at 2:02pm
	with regard to those who fight you not The emphasis is on FIGHT YOU NOT my dearest fake Maulana. You interpret it to mean Great Amreeka obviously with AMEER put in by you.
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Whisper Male Other Senior Member Joined: 25 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4752	Posted: 14 November 2005 at 2:21pm
	Use them for target practice you say? you have a big mouth and i am sure a mother who has a son in the military and reads your words would wish you out of this world, how dare you joke around about killing. I am sure you are enough to worry about all the soldiers' mothers. I hold no desire fr any such fancy words. They are more than welcome to wish me out of anywhere, their sons are doing the job of killing as many people as they desire - list them as Al-qaeda or Talibaan. I am not some half-backe ayaat twister, I fear not the US, I don't treat US as a Deputy Gaad or something. You have still to show us WHO said Karl was a messenger of Allah. Or, apologise to me unconditionally for such malicious slur.
	IP Logged

Whisper Male Other Senior Member Joined: 25 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 4752	Posted: 14 November 2005 at 2:27pm
	Now i really am convinced people under Saddam said prayers like these don't you think? If they did then why are approx 71% of them now praying to get rid of the Americans? And, why do 45% believe it's okay to strike the occupiers? Coalition Forces survey - not Al-Qaeda's
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