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Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
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Shamil
 
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Quote Shamil Replybullet Posted: 10 November 2005 at 11:19am
Originally posted by Mishmish

Originally posted by Maryga

Can we still continue to blame the west after experiencing the Tsunami, the earthquakes etc where the majority of those affected were Muslims? Man is unjust, but Allah always dispenses justice. If we are so good why are we experiencing Allah's wrath? What is wrong with us? Where are we failing?

Shamil,

What does the Ayat you quoted have to do with the original point listed above?

Yes, there are numerous Ayats in the Quran that speak of the punishment of those that go astray, but none that specifically state that natural disasters will be called down only upon the heads of Muslims. Perhaps I am wrong in this, I certainly am no scholar, but if there is such an Ayat then please post it.

If, as these posts suggest, Allah(SWT) is dispensing justice upon the Muslim Ummah for our wrongs, then where is the justice in the death of the hundreds of children killed in the Pakistani earthquake. They were still young enough to be completely innocent.

 

No, it does not state anything specific about natural disasters. I simply quoted the ayat that most specifically states that if the Ummah goes astray Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala would replace it with another people. One could assume that this implies the Ummah would face destruction and be replaced by a more worthy people, but certainly this is not a necessary conclusion and is not attested to in Tafsir Ibn-Kathir. But it does clearly state that if the Ummah goes astray Allah subhanahu ta'ala will simply choose another, more worthy people.

As for the rest of the argument concerning natural disasters, I agree with the position that we cannot make any conclusions about them being retribution against the Ummah. In fact, the Tsunami affected a great number of non-Muslim peoples. I simply wanted to add this verse into the discussion as it does in fact warn that there will be consequences not simply to individuals but to the entire Ummah for failing to live up to the tenets of Islam.



Edited by Shamil
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Mishmish
 
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Quote Mishmish Replybullet Posted: 10 November 2005 at 12:02pm

Assalamu Alaikum Abeer23:

If I remember the stories of these Prophets correctly, none of the death and destruction brought forth upon the people was directed towards only the Muslims.

Yes, innocent children die everyday. but if it is in retribution for the sins of the Muslims, for what sin are the innocent killed? Didn't the Prophet say if a mother loses three children in death then she will see Jennah, and when asked what if she loses two he answered yes, if she loses two also. This is not a retribution from Allah, but a great mercy to be allowed Jennah because of the suffering of the loss.

If a child dies before the age of reason, puberty, aren't they considered innocent of sin? If this is the case, then the death of the children at the time of Nuh, Lut, etc was actually a mercy to the children as they were given Jennah before they were old enough to commit the same sins as their parents. Thus, this is not an act of retribution but rather an act of mercy.  

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Mishmish
 
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Quote Mishmish Replybullet Posted: 10 November 2005 at 12:08pm

Assalamu Alaikum:

I personally believe that having to live with the knowledge that I had once had the favor of Allah(SWT) and losing that favor to another people because of my failure to obey His laws would be a far greater punishment than death at a time when I still had hope of Jennah.

There are things that are worse than death.

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Mishmish
 
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Quote Mishmish Replybullet Posted: 10 November 2005 at 12:31pm

Assalamu Alaikum:

Just let me clarify my last post. I do not believe that I personally have Allah's favor. In fact, quite the opposite. I have been so bitter about worldly events that I feel quite lost. I guess that's why I started reading the posts here. I thought it might help.

It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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tgrant
 
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Quote tgrant Replybullet Posted: 10 November 2005 at 5:57pm

Is it possible, just possible that the tsumani was caused by a shift in techtonic plates deep under the ocean floor which just happened to be near a part of the world where the inhabitants are primary Muslim and that the Hurricanes in America were caused by high pressure systems that tend to exist in the Gulf are this time of year and that I stubbed my toe this morning because I wasn't watching were I was going.

Just a thought.

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Mishmish
 
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Quote Mishmish Replybullet Posted: 10 November 2005 at 6:28pm

Well, that is the scientific explanation for what happened, but Islamically speaking, no. Nothing happens without a reason and no one dies until it is their time to die. So, the people who lived where these catastrophes occurred and died were meant to die at that time.    Allah knows what's best.



Edited by Mishmish
It is only with the heart that one can see clearly, what is essential is invisible to the eye. (The Little Prince)
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Maryga
 
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Quote Maryga Replybullet Posted: 10 November 2005 at 8:33pm

Wa-alaikum-as- Salaam. Mishmish wrote :What I meant was that there is nothing in the Quran that indicates that Allah(SWT) would specifically rain destruction down upon the Muslim Ummah. None of the Ayats you mention describe any such direct retribution upon Muslims”.

 

Can you please define to me who a “Muslim” is? Does a person simply by virtue of his birth in a Muslim household become a Muslim? Does a person simply because he bears a Muslim name and says the Kalimah without deep faith and the true belief in the hereafter be a Muslim?

 

036.011: Thou canst but admonish such a one as follows the Message and fears the (Lord) Most Gracious, unseen: give such a one, therefore, good tidings, of Forgiveness and a Reward most generous.

 

The above verse from Sura Ya-Sin indicates that a believer is one who follows the Message and fears Allah the Most Gracious without actually having seen Him. How many of us actually fit into the definition of “Muslims” or “believers”? How many of us follow all the commandments in the Qur’an?

The verse Shamil quoted also has very deep significance to the topic under discussion. Read carefully:

 47.38. Behold, ye are those invited to spend (of your substance) in the Way of Allah. But among you are some that are niggardly. But any who are niggardly are so at the expense of their own souls. But Allah is free of all wants, and it is ye that are needy. If ye turn back (from the Path), He will substitute in your stead another people; then they would not be like you!

Allah has emphasised upon charity after prayer in a great number of places in the Qur’an. In the above verse Allah has said that if we don’t obey His command He is not in need of us and He will replace us by other people. Who is this addressed to? To those who have believed! It is not enough to believe without putting Allah’s commands into practise. We have to reflect upon the signs of Allah and admonish each other. None of us are perfect and may Allah protect us and guide us all to the right path, Ameen!

023.093:Say: "O my Lord! if Thou wilt show me (in my lifetime) that which they are warned against,-

023.094:"Then, O my Lord! put me not amongst the people who do wrong!"

023.095: And We are certainly able to show thee (in fulfilment) that against which they are warned.

023.096: Repel evil with that which is best: We are well acquainted with the things they say.

023.097: And say "O my Lord! I seek refuge with Thee from the suggestions of the Evil Ones.

023.098: "And I seek refuge with Thee O my Lord! lest they should come near me."

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freebird
 
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Quote freebird Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2005 at 1:00am

The earth is always on the move since long before human existance and will always do so, either we are here or not.

When the tsunamy struck many believers accross the globe questioning the God's existance without thinking. Well that is always our problem because we always think that the God is sitting somewhere up there as though he has nothing else to do other than watching us to make a mistake and than - boom, gotcha!

It is a wise thing to do to think Allah not as an individual person with emotion. Instead of thinking of Allah as HE, now try the God as IT.

To me I feel more at home seeing Allah that way. With this way there is no distance whatsoever between the creator and the creations, and death is meaningless - it does not exist.

Humans origin is the earth - we are closely connected with it. The more spiritual the person the closer he/she is with the whole natural world - with earth in particular.

Allah said: "Call on me and I will answer your call". The earth is very responsive to the spiritual humans pray, it always react to their call, curse and un uttered anguish.

Yet we accuse God for doing that, when it is the earth - which is only reacting to the call.

No one can think that way until the God "somewhere" is droped from the picture in the mind, than the Qur'an is getting easier to understand - bit by it. 

This is the year 2005, 1400 years since the Qur'an was sent down, surely it is long enough to work that out by now.

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