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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Topic: On the world not being perfect
    Posted: 06 November 2005 at 10:47am

Salaam,

With deep thought on the way our world is it occured to me that it isn't perfect the way I thought it was. Of course we as complex creatures created by God through his infinite wisdom have te intellect to discern perfection from impefection. We with our intellect have poetically attributed to God perfection along with his creation. We say poetically through religious litanies that God in his wisdom created the world perfect.

I would agree that God being the divine origin of all life in the universe is absolutely perfect because God, without flaw is consistent and the proof of such is through the consistancy of the universe. The continous flow of energy and matter and complex organism that are building blocks for life is enough reason to presuppose God's perfection. What about earth?

Earth in my humble opinion is not perfect although it is structure to be complex and function independently it is inherently imperfect. First let me say that complexity is not perfection nor does complexity validate perfection. We can say that the amputated arm is imperfect to the person who has an attached arm. We call the amputee imperfect because of this, but in reality the arm can still function because of the nerves that exist in the area uneffected by the amputation. That is an imperfection but its still a complex organism.

Because we see the world as imperfect makes it no less valuable than if we say it is perfect. I say the world is imperfect because the laws of morality are not perfect. I say the world is imperfect because the natural laws are imperfect. Again let me remind you all that complexity does not generate perfection. The world chaotic as it is cannot be perfect. Morality exist through learned behavior. We call this free will but again what dominates the world today? All these things have lead me to believe that the world is truly imperfect and perhaps with good reason?

How do we learn what it is to struggle for something if we don't suffer for it? God says in the Qur'an with the challenging question (not in this form however): "Do you think you'd reach heaven without being tried?" I believe God allows immorality to exist at an even greater degree to show us knowledge and to be able to adapt to situations to obtain a greater knowledge of him. This is just a brief Food for thought...... (Think about it)

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Abeer23
 
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Quote Abeer23 Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2005 at 2:51pm

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaan,  all of that just to say "the world isn't perfect"? (just kidding)

Great post bro,    I totally agree with you .  I must say, I've never really met a person who thought otherwise.

Salaam

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Deus
 
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Quote Deus Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2005 at 3:16pm
But isn't this decreed balance of morality/immorality, chaos/order, etc. makes the world balanced in a perfect way? But then how do we define perfection?
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2005 at 6:22pm
Perfection is relative its not totally universal when attribute perfection to a higher being that in the sense is reverence when we attribute perfection earthly its relative rather than a universal concept like God...
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2005 at 8:51pm

To Deus let me expand from my inital post on the concept of 'perfection.' Perhaps when we talk about perfection we talk about being ina flawless state, or to be in a state of the highest degree or highest exaltation. There are of course varying interpretations on perfection but I'd like to take the inital definition of being flawless.

The world as I mentioned is not flawless.

You mentioned Deus that we have sickness/health morality/immorality as means of balance. I'd make the challenging question to you on how such are ingredients in the balanciing of the universe? Because we have such cases on earth do we have the same case on Mars or Venus? I understand that is dramatically out there but my point is that even in saying that these are elements of creating a balance on earth I believe these are also elements of subjective belief.

I firmly believe that through the complexity of nature there is the element of imperfection that exist genetically, naturally and universally. Perhaps this is in itself a divinve law but I cannot say this is perfection. Let me remind others that when I say the world is not perfect I say that not to show disrespect to our Creator but to show that through our practical understanding we can see that we shouldn't poeticize perfection in creation.

God is exalted above everything comprehensible therefore even calling God "Perfect" God is beyond that because our idea of perfection is flawed and subjective. There is no possible (or logical) way to attribute anything to God except by negative logic which is to say that in creation God's earth and creation is imperfect while God himself is perfect. Quite a difficult subject to grasp. I still have trouble contemplating this.

 

Make no mistake I do however subscribe to the Quranic verses which imply the inherent perfection in creation meaning, the design and the complexity of creation for all things inherently have that divine origins in them.



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Abeer23
 
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Quote Abeer23 Replybullet Posted: 06 November 2005 at 11:36pm

"There is no possible (or logical) way to attribute anything to God except by negative logic which is to say that in creation God's earth and creation is imperfect while God himself is perfect. Quite a difficult subject to grasp. I still have trouble contemplating this."

 

Hmm not exactly.  We can attribute certain attributes to Allah.  He is the Loving, All knowing, Great, Light, Mighty, etc.   His attributes can be found in the Quran.  

Salaam

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Pinoy
 
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Quote Pinoy Replybullet Posted: 07 November 2005 at 5:47am
Salaam,

As far as I know God is the ONLY perfect being. Some people have their own interpretation/understanding of perfection. Really depends on the person. But good point though Israfil.
Jesus said, "Let the children come to me, for the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say, whoever doesn't receive the Kingdom of God like a child will not enter it." - Luke 18:16-17

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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 07 November 2005 at 7:21pm

Abeer,

As'Salaam alaikum

Yes in the Qur'an Allah has 99 names which are all attributes pertaining to his existence and which are qualities by definition we can define. When we say Allah is All-Merciful is an attrivute which Allah is mericful in the way that humans comprehend. I believe Allah is incomprehensible in being however the only link we have to Allah is his word which is Al-Qur'an I believe there is no true way of defining God hence Allah being incomprehensible. However I hold the Quranic verse "And we are closer to you than your own jugular vein."

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