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airmano
 
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Quote airmano Replybullet Posted: 27 May 2014 at 2:05pm
Originally posted by Quranexplorer

Looks like this is just going around in circles – I just explained above why just picking the stars part alone from the discussion does not make any sense just like your “A is true” statement, but you again come back with the same argument

For me the trouble with all these scientific interpretations of the Quran is that statements like "See ye not how Allah hath created seven heavens in harmony, And hath made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?" are systematically turned into miracles.
- The 7 heavens are worthless from a scientific viewpoint (science just doesn't care about heaven(s) be it 1 or 7) - but this must not stop you to believe in it ! (I don't).
-Again, that the sun is hotter than the moon is trivial and even giving it a scientific twist (by the interpreter) still doesn't change the fact that the Greeks stated the reflection business of the moon almost a thousand years earlier and opposite to the Quran in a really explicit way.

Claiming defiantly that the Quran is better anyway doesn't make this fact go away and honesty (or call it scientific practice) should make you mention the true inventor !

Now to:
And if they were to see a fragment of the heaven falling, they would say: A heap of clouds"
Sure, I know this "argument". But I can be convinced: I do believe that the earth is round, that Quantum Theory really got something to say, as does Newtons Mechanics or General Relativity. Here the evidence is nothing else than overwhelming - what I can't say about the "scientific facts" in the Quran.

More to the embryology another time.

Airmano

Edited by airmano - 27 May 2014 at 2:22pm
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Quranexplorer
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Quote Quranexplorer Replybullet Posted: 30 May 2014 at 2:27pm
Good, let’s get in to the basics now:

I am kind of surprised at this illusion of science being projected as the ultimate tool to testify anything and everything – because science itself is a human tool with all human imperfections that it can only testify what is in its limited realm.

The best example could be the list of planets. I grew up hearing about a solar system with 9 planets including Pluto and we understand now Pluto has been eliminated from the list, and there could be new addition(s) to this list – the only thing certain in science is the uncertainty and that’s what is driving it forward. And with this history of science, no man of science can make a statement like below because something not known to science today does not mean it is not there
Originally posted by airmano


- The 7 heavens are worthless from a scientific viewpoint (science just doesn't care about heaven(s) be it 1 or 7
and a man of science just cannot be certain what’s in store in future.

Originally posted by airmano

Sure, I know this "argument". But I can be convinced: I do believe that the earth is round, that Quantum Theory really got something to say, as does Newtons Mechanics or General Relativity. Here the evidence is nothing else than overwhelming - what I can't say about the "scientific facts" in the Quran.
when you say the above, the difference is that the Quranic verses stands the test of time whereas none of the above theories have stood that in an absolute sense (there are exceptions to them within science) and no one can be sure of their fate in future as a better theory can replace them any time:

Quantum Theory - Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle states that the measurements in Quantum mechanics can never be precise
Newton’s Mechanics – Classical Newton’s Mechanics does not work in relativity realms
General Relativity – There are indications of speeds exceeding light which could impact this theory

If you find the evidence of these theories which cannot stand the test of time and can be proved wrong anytime “overwhelming” but the wisdom of Quranic verses including the scientific references therein which stands the test of time don’t impress you – don’t you think there is something fundamentally wrong.

But I like the Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle because it really kind of accepts the human limitation and this will stand the test of time for sure 

Having seen there is nothing in science to be in competition with Allah and his revelation:

Al-Baqara 2:255: Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtaketh Him. Unto Him belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedeth with Him save by His leave? He knoweth that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He will. His throne includeth the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous.

the real question now boils down to whether you want to believe or you don’t want to believe? and I absolutely agree with you the choice is yours because this is something Allah has bestowed on human – the limited free will to choose the right path and I wish Allah could guide you to this path someday.
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Quote airmano Replybullet Posted: 19 June 2014 at 8:15am
Quranexplorer:
The best example could be the list of planets. I grew up hearing about a solar system with 9 planets including Pluto and we understand now Pluto has been eliminated from the list, and there could be new addition(s) to this list – the only thing certain in science is the uncertainty and that’s what is driving it forward. And with this history of science, no man of science can make a statement like below because something not known to science today does not mean it is not there
This is not a good example. Calling Pluto a a planet or not is just a matter of nomenclature, it barely implies a change in theory.
...the difference is that the Quranic verses stands the test of time whereas none of the above theories have stood that in an absolute sense (there are exceptions to them within science) and no one can be sure of their fate in future as a better theory can replace them any time
The "scientific cases" in the Quran are so far off that no scientist takes them serious (and will thus not even attempt to prove them wrong). By far the biggest part of the Quran are unprovable statements of the type "if you (don't) do this or that, you'll go to hell". The rest is what was common knowledge at the time anyway. Talking about the "test of time": Newtons theory has survived several centuries. In non-relativistic situations it is still a correct concept. Einstein didn't kill Newtonian mechanics, he expanded it.    
But I like the Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle because it really kind of accepts the human limitation and this will stand the test of time for sure
Science is not about what you like or not. Science is about theories which are supported (or contradicted) by observation and measurements (data).

The Quran does not express a theory which is/can be measured or supported by data. It is not a science book. It does not contain any "scientific miracles".

Airmano

Edited by airmano - 19 June 2014 at 11:19am
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Quote Quranexplorer Replybullet Posted: 20 June 2014 at 7:53am
Originally posted by airmano

This is not a good example. Calling Pluto a a planet or not is just a matter of nomenclature, it barely implies a change in theory.
Of course this is a good example showing the limitation of science. It observes things that are out there which were not created by human hands, tries to come up with an explanation and thinks that it has got the right explanation, after so many years it realizes whatever it thought as correct was actually wrong – but what to do, it can only do what it can do – only human!

Let me make it very clear, I am not anti-science, I admire the good things science has done, but has a problem only when people try to use science as an excuse for their non-belief, because science has nothing to stand against Allah, however advanced it gets.

Originally posted by airmano

The "scientific cases" in the Quran are so far off that no scientist takes them serious (and will thus not even attempt to prove them wrong). By far the biggest part of the Quran are unprovable statements of the type "if you (don't) do this or that, you'll go to hell". The rest is what was common knowledge at the time anyway. Talking about the "test of time": Newtons theory has survived several centuries. In non-relativistic situations it is still a correct concept. Einstein didn't kill Newtonian mechanics, he expanded it.    
If you expect Quran to give details like a science journal, you are mistaken. The purpose of Quran is to help man make an informed choice in his life i.e. to follow the path of Allah, the scientific references are only signs given for men of learning to reflect and get closer to the ultimate purpose of their life i.e. success in the hereafter. The Quran has got many scientific references beyond its time and we have already discussed some specific cases here. Coming to scientific theories, the point is none of them can claim to be absolute, they can be modified or can become completely irrelevant at some point in time, nobody can be sure about it. But Quranic statements, whether it be historic facts, scientific references or any kind of statement, stands the test of time in an absolute sense – absolutely no change with time.
Originally posted by airmano

Science is about theories which are supported (or contradicted) by observation and measurements (data).
This is the whole point, science is only a human tool operating in a limited realm with limited success in explaining things that it observes, whereas there are things beyond its realm that cannot be explained by science. The problem is still you expect this imperfect tool to give you all answers and to testify everything.

Originally posted by airmano

The Quran does not express a theory which is/can be measured or supported by data. It is not a science book. It does not contain any "scientific miracles".
Quran is not limited as a science book. Its realm is much wider than science, covering all aspects of human life. And Quran is not a book of theory – the problem is you are not able to look beyond the limited scope of science! How can you blame Quran if the available imperfect human tools including science fails to measure or testify the Quran as the wisdom of Quran is clearly beyond their realms? But whatever is in the Quran that is known to the limited knowledge of science or human data today is in perfect accordance. So don’t try to fit Quran in to science, but it is the other way, science fits in to Quran.
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Quote airmano Replybullet Posted: 24 June 2014 at 2:37pm
Of course this is a good example showing the limitation of science
We disagree
I admire the good things science has done, but has a problem only when people try to use science as an excuse for their non-belief, because science has nothing to stand against Allah, however advanced it gets.
Science and the Quran got nothing in common.
If you expect Quran to give details like a science journal, you are mistaken.
No I don't. As told, the Quran holds no scientificly usable claims but only unprovable statements about heaven and hell.
This is the whole point, science is only a human tool operating in a limited realm with limited success in explaining things that it observes, whereas there are things beyond its realm that cannot be explained by science. The problem is still you expect this imperfect tool to give you all answers and to testify everything
I admit that we don't not know everything but as far as I can see the Quran doesn't fill this gap either.
Quran is not limited as a science book.
Sure, it is not a science book as you write yourself. The Quran doesn't care about science.
How can you blame Quran if the available imperfect human tools including science fails to measure or testify the Quran as the wisdom of Quran is clearly beyond their realms?
Give me a statement from the Quran which is more than trivial and not of the "You go to hell" kind and we will discuss things.
But whatever is in the Quran that is known to the limited knowledge of science or human data today is in perfect accordance.
We are not made out of clay, sorry.

Airmano

Edited by airmano - 24 June 2014 at 2:40pm
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Quote Quranexplorer Replybullet Posted: 04 July 2014 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by airmano

We disagree
No matter you agree or disagree, the fact that Pluto was though of as a planet initially for many years and later found out as not a planet shows the limitation of science as a human tool.

Originally posted by airmano

Science and the Quran got nothing in common.
Just go back to the start of this thread for some examples we have discussed and for more here https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=uld0Y-mLoVQC

Originally posted by airmano

No I don't. As told, the Quran holds no scientificly usable claims but only unprovable statements about heaven and hell.
Just go back to the start of this thread for some examples we have discussed and for more here https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=uld0Y-mLoVQC

Originally posted by airmano

I admit that we don't not know everything but as far as I can see the Quran doesn't fill this gap either.
Quran perfectly explains this gap by the ultimate creator and sustainer Allah who is all knowing in the absolute sense. I use my reason and appreciate all human tools including science to the extent they can explain things, but at the same time understand the limitation of all these tools which fail to explain many things observed in the natural world, let alone the realm of Allah. Whereas you admit the limitation of these tools but still remain adamant that everything including Quran and Allah should fit into these imperfect tools - that does not make sense.

Originally posted by airmano

Sure, it is not a science book as you write yourself. The Quran doesn't care about science.
Just go back to the start of this thread for some examples we have discussed and for more here https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=uld0Y-mLoVQC. I think I am repeating this answer the 3rd time here. But when people don't understand or pretend not to understand, you are left with no choice but to be repetitive.

Originally posted by airmano

Give me a statement from the Quran which is more than trivial and not of the "You go to hell" kind and we will discuss things.
If you go up this thread you will see a post where you promised to discuss something on science vs Quran on embriology. So you fulfill your promise first and then we can think about more things.

Originally posted by airmano

We are not made out of clay, sorry.
If you are sure tell me what we are made of, then I can show you what is common between that and clay

   
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Quote airmano Replybullet Posted: 12 July 2014 at 11:40pm
Quranexplorer

No matter you agree or disagree, the fact that Pluto was though of as a planet initially for many years and later found out as not a planet shows the limitation of science as a human tool.
To cut a long story short, take a look at the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAU_definition_of_planet
Obviously we will never agree since even the specialists in the field do not agree on their definitions(!).
To make live easier I will give you some better examples: Classical (Newtonian) mechanics was found to break down on very small scales which lead to the formulation of Quantum mechanics.
Furthermore Newtonian mechanics did also not hold at high speeds, high gravitational fields and so on and thus Mr. Einstein had to extend Newtons view for these cases as well. This does however not mean that Newton "was wrong". It simply meant that his theory had to be extended. When you take a plane or drive over a bridge good old Newton still does a marvellous job. I can even agree that there were scientific theories which had to be abandoned, like Lamarcks theory on the evolution (but his theory is still of use in the description of progress in science). May be you can look at these statements as soothing , but before you get overjoyed you should however realize that your claim that the "Quran has withstood any tests for 1400 years flawlessly" is also "wrong" in the same sense.
With modern knowledge it is easy to see that the story about Noah's arc is impossible. In ancient times Muslims (as well as Christians) did believe in these stories in a literal sense.
You don't need rocket science to find out that there is not enough water on earth to immerse all our continents, not to talk about the impossibility to construct a boat large enough (with the means of the time) to hold all air breathing animals (+ the dinosaurs + the food) inside. There are many more examples in the Quran (like people turning into monkeys) which - when taken literally are shear nonsense. Islam - like Christianity adapt to these changes (imposed by science) by shifting prior "explanations" of our world into metaphorical meanings. So don't tell me that [the interpretation of] the Quran has withstood all tests without changes. BTW: Looking at the "sun as a lamp", you still find people here in the forum that take this claim literally, but science tells a different story.
In clear terms: The Quran get's permanently adapted to science, not the other way round ! Wicked people would call this behavior: "Moving the goal-posts".

Now to your link: https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=uld0Y-mLoVQC which you repeat twice. I refuse to respond to links (films) and books without any prior explanation from the posting person.
I hope it doesn't sound rude, but to me this looks like: "I have no clue, but may be the one who wrote the book knows more". If the book got really something important to say, break it down in a couple of lines and I'm willing to discuss it.

Embryology.
You're right, I should have answered earlier. Let me group my answer together with your last question regarding the clay:
If you are sure tell me what we are made of, then I can show you what is common between that and clay
You surely know that most our body consists of water H2O (by the way the Greeks knew that long before Mohammed but in Islam it is always Mohamed which is given as the "inventor". Strange isn't it ?). Bones are mainly hydroxyapatite, with the formula Ca5(PO4)3(OH) thus Calcium based. The other main constituent element of our body is Carbon.
Most of the clays are (Alumina-)Silicates like Kaolin (Al2Si2O5(OH)4), they are thus Silicon based. So already on the level of (chemical) elements our body and clay got nothing in common. Therefore this statement is thus simply wrong when taken literally. I guess that Mohamed saw that clay and "flesh" are similar in the sense that they are both soft and easily "malleable". Some forms of clay also look similar to the color of our skin, so nothing supernatural here and in the best case some (wrong) analogy. As usual there is of course nothing about proteins, peptides, DNA and so on in the Quran. No surprise: The Quran is not a science book !

Now more specifically to embryology. In 23:12 it is written:
We created man from an essence of clay, then We placed him as a drop of fluid in a safe place. Then We made that drop of fluid into a clinging form, and then We made that form into a lump of flesh, and We made that lump into bones, and We clothed those bones with flesh, and later We made him into other forms. Glory be to God the best of creators.

Concerning the clay I just responded. Now, the "drop of fluid". (Islamic) literature is full of interpretations of this "drop of fluid". Sometimes it is referred to as sperm which brings us the incredible news that kids are coming from sexual intercourse. Next the lump of flesh, mostly interpreted as an embryo: Natural abortions did and do happen all the time (and the likelihood for it to happen goes up if you have several women and also with the age of the man). So you don't need to be Gods messenger to find out that foetuses are (mainly) a "lump of flesh". It is also of no magic to state that what we call "uterus" today can be called a "safe place" for an unborn child.
Now to the last sentence "...made that lump into bones, and We clothed those bones with flesh" - No, a foetus never gets converted into bones to become covered by flesh afterwards. This is shear nonsense in the light of modern knowledge.
To finish "...and later We made him into other forms" is a bit like my "A" statement. May be true, but so vague that it becomes meaningless.


Glad to be of service: Airmano

Edited by airmano - 19 July 2014 at 2:18pm
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Quote marcello Replybullet Posted: 18 July 2014 at 6:34am
Originally posted by Quranexplorer

Quran is a miracle not only because of the scientific references it has but also because of a number of unique characteristics which clearly sets it far above any of human works, including . . . an impeccable consistency of facts throughout its verses . . . .


It is well known that the Quran contains many, many internal contradictions and inconsistencies. Muslim "scholars" have, for centuries, spent many lifetimes standing on their heads to try to explain these away. Just a few are documented at http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/.
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