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TG12345
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Topic: Question for Muslims about 29:38
    Posted: 18 April 2014 at 11:23am
Salaam Alaikum. I don't know whether or not this will come across as "a trick question", but I hope that it leads to a debate.

Can anyone please explain to me what 29:38 means?

And [We destroyed] 'Aad and Thamud, and it has become clear to you from their [ruined] dwellings. And Satan had made pleasing to them their deeds and averted them from the path, and they were endowed with perception.

Surat Al-`Ankabut [29:38] - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم

Where are the dwellings of the 'Ad and Thamud, that people can see, so it is clear for them that these nations were destroyed as the Quran says?

Thanks.


The topic of the Thamud was discussed on several previous threads in the past, but I am curious about 29:38. Where can one find the dwellings of the Thamud and 'Ad, and how do they back up the Quran's account?
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NABA
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2014 at 2:05am
These dwellings are present in Madina Saleh.Allah in Quran in ch 11 v 68 says that he destroyed people of thamud as if they never existed.th8 doesn't mean that their dwellings are destroyed fully.
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2014 at 3:08am


Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that the people encamped along with Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) in the valley of Hijr, the habitations of Thamud, and they quenched their thirst from the wells thereof and kneaded the flour with it. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) commanded that the water collected for drinking should be spilt and the flour should be given to the camels and commanded them that the water for drinking should be taken from that well where the she-camel (of Hadrat Salih) used to come.

Reference : Sahih Muslim 2981 a
In-book reference : Book 55, Hadith 49
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 42, Hadith 7105

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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2014 at 5:26am
Originally posted by Abu Loren



Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that the people encamped along with Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) in the valley of Hijr, the habitations of Thamud, and they quenched their thirst from the wells thereof and kneaded the flour with it. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) commanded that the water collected for drinking should be spilt and the flour should be given to the camels and commanded them that the water for drinking should be taken from that well where the she-camel (of Hadrat Salih) used to come.

Reference : Sahih Muslim 2981 a
In-book reference : Book 55, Hadith 49
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 42, Hadith 7105



Thanks for posting this hadith. I found another one, also in Muslim, which states that Muhammad and his men left the valley in a hurry.

(5) Ibn Shihab reported, and he had been talking about the stony abodes of thamud, and he said: Salim b. 'Abdullah reported that 'Abdullah b. Umar said: We were passing along with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) through the habitations of Hijr, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Do not enter but weepingly the habitations of these persons who committed tyranny among themselves, lest the same calamity should fall upon you as it fell upon them. He then urged his mount to proceed quickly and pass through that valley hurriedly.  (Book #042, Hadith #7104)

http://searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=thamud&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

Is the Quran saying that the homes of the Thamud were completely destroyed, or are they still around?

Also, where are these wells?




Edited by TG12345 - 19 April 2014 at 5:38am
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2014 at 5:27am
Originally posted by NABA

These dwellings are present in Madina Saleh.Allah in Quran in ch 11 v 68 says that he destroyed people of thamud as if they never existed.th8 doesn't mean that their dwellings are destroyed fully.

That would make sense to me. Where in Madain Saleh can you find the dwellings of the Thamud?
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2014 at 8:29pm
U can refer to wikipedia as well as even if u rite thamud structures on google u will find it, I think from aug to oct last yr we hv been discussing abt Thamud n I hv shown u lot of proofs of thamud structures.
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Quote TG12345 Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2014 at 10:00pm
Originally posted by NABA

U can refer to wikipedia as well as even if u rite thamud structures on google u will find it, I think from aug to oct last yr we hv been discussing abt Thamud n I hv shown u lot of proofs of thamud structures.

Salaam Alaikum, NABA. We definitely did discuss this.

I used scholarly sources that show that the structures were built by the Nabataeans, who were in the area some 1,000 years after the events described in the Quran allegedly took place.

The wikipedia article shows the buildings built by the Nabateans, and claims the Thamud built them. They actually link to a source to back up this claim, and the source states they were built by the Nabataeans! The author of the wikipedia article did not read his sources.

From the wikipedia article:


File:Petra%20Jordan%20BW%2036.JPG

Thamud dwellings in Mada'in Saleh.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thamud

Click on the [1] and it will take you to the UNESCO report. It says clearly that the tombs in Madain Saleh were built by the Nabataeans, between the 2nd century AD and the first century BC.

I have listed some scholarly sources that show that the Nabataeans were the ones who built these structures, and I have no problem listing them again. The authors are historians and archaeologists, not anonymous wikipedia writers.

Al-Hijr Archaeological Site (Madâin Sâlih)

The Archaeological Site of Al-Hijr (Madâin Sâlih) is the first World Heritage property to be inscribed in Saudi Arabia. Formerly known as Hegra it is the largest conserved site of the civilization of the Nabataeans south of Petra in Jordan. It features well-preserved monumental tombs with decorated facades dating from the 1st century BC to the 1st century AD. The site also features some 50 inscriptions of the pre-Nabataean period and some cave drawings. Al-Hijr bears a unique testimony to Nabataean civilization. With its 111 monumental tombs, 94 of which are decorated, and water wells, the site is an outstanding example of the Nabataeans’ architectural accomplishment and hydraulic expertise.


http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1293


Most of the monuments and inscriptions of the archaeological site of Al-Hijr date from the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE. But the inscriptions in Lihyanite script and some recently discovered archaeological vestiges are evidence for human settlement as early as the 3rd or 2nd century BCE.
One-third of the tombs, which are amongst the largest, are clearly dated to between 0-75 CE.

The Hedjaz region was integrated into the Roman province of Arabia in 106 CE. A monumental Roman epigraph of 175-177 CE was recently discovered at Al- Hijr. The region then formed part of Roman history, and then Byzantine history, until the 7th century. In 356, the city of Hegra is again mentioned, as being led by a mayor of local origin, but it seems to have been very modest in size at that time.

Al-Hijr Archaeological Site (Madâin Sâlih) - UNESCO World Heritage Centre


2) The Nabataean city of Hegra or Al-Hijr was formed
around a central residential zone and its oasis
. The
sandstone outcrops at various degrees of proximity
offered outstanding possibilities for rock-cut necropoles
or spaces, forming a remarkable site for the expression of
Nabataean monumental architecture.

http://whc.unesco.org/archive/adviso...ation/1293.pdf

According to the First International Conference for Urban Heritage in the Islamic countries, Al Hijr was settled by the Thamud and other people groups before the Nabateans, but the Nabateans were the only ones who built a city... they carved tombs out of rocks. There have been remains of prehistoric people discovered in some of the mountains as well as petroglyphs. The Lihyanites, Thamud and Minaites left inscriptions... however it was the Nabateans who carved buildings out of rock. They settled in the area around the 1st century BC and built a city.




Al-Hijr lies in northwest Saudi Arabia, between the cities of Medina and Tabuk, 22 kilometres north of the city of al-Ula. Remains of human occupation in the region go back to ancient times. The area has been a significant focus of human settlement over a long period, due to the abundance of factors supporting an early shift to a sedentary way of life. These include fertile land, the presence of sources of water and a strategic position with respect to the great centres of civilization in the ancient Near East. Prehistoric remains have been recorded at the top of some of the mountains which surround the site of Mada’in Salih. Moreover, many rock faces in the area are covered with petroglyphs, some of which are prehistoric.

According to several passages in the Qur’an, the site was already inhabited in the third millennium BC by the Thamudic tribes. Lihyanite, Minaic and Thamudic inscriptions which have been found on the site, are evidence for an occupation in the first millennium BC.

The Nabataeans probably settled in Mada’in Salih in the first century BC and were politically independent at least until the beginning of the second century AD.

They are the only inhabitants of the site who left behind them the remains of a real city. The part of the city in which the people were living was surrounded by various necropolises, which contained monumental rock-cut tombs as well as ordinary pit tombs, while a specific area was devoted to sanctuaries. Water was provided by a dense network of wells.

During the Islamic period, al-Hijr was an important stop on the Syrian pilgrimage road. A citadel and a large reservoir were built for the pilgrims’ convenience. Finally, at the beginning of the 20th century, a railway station was constructed at Mada’in Salih on the so-called Hejaz railway, which linked Turkey to the city of Madina, also crossing Syria.


First International Conference For Urban Heritage In The Islamic Countries


Mada’in Saleh, not far from al-Ula (22 km), was known as al-Hijr, or Hegra, by the Nabataean people who carved its magnificent tombs into the golden Quweira sandstone outcrops. The delicate details on the entrance portals and the smooth surfaces of its 111 tomb façades reflect the great skills of the masons of their time. The splendor of the natural setting here must have reminded the Nabataeans of their capital, Petra, hewn into the rosey sandstone cliffs to the north in modern-day Jordan. It is no wonder that they chose this very spot to build their second city, Hegra. Based on the many dated tomb inscriptions, Hegra thrived between 1 BCE -74 CE.

http://saudi-archaeology.com/sites/madain-saleh/


The Thamud were a nomadic Arabian tribe, who traveled from place to place. They did not build any permanent settlements.

Earliest Historical and Archaeological Information
The first clear mention of the Nabataeans in historical reference dates back to 312 BC, when Diodorus described Petra and its people during Antigonus’s attack on the town (Diodorus XIX 94-97). In was almost three hundred years later that Mada'in Salih was first mentioned by Strabo, who described Gallus’s attack on Arabia in 24 BC (Strabo, Geography 16.4.24). That meant that the town was established in the last quarter of the first century BC.
However,scholars suggest that the town might have been founded before the Nabataean settlement, in the early part of the first millennium B.C., by the Dedanites (Healey, 1993, 25). Dedan is known as Al-Ula. It was an important station on the main caravan routs from South Arabia to North Arabia and flourished during the sixth century BC. Winnett believes that the Minaean inscriptions in Madain Salih (JS1-5, 33, 34) and the 29 Lihyanite inscriptions are strong evidence that the site had witnessed a Minaean occupation prior to the Nabateans (Winnnet and Reed 1970, 130 Chapter 7). Musil believes that the Nabataeans were initially under Lihyanite rule (1926, 107). Al-Ansari believes that the Minaean inscriptions which are located at various places in al-Ula and Madain Salih indicate trade relations between the two towns and not Minaean rule. Minaeasns were temporary residents in Al-Ula, just as they were in other places, like Greece (Al-Ansari, et al. 1984, 11). Pliny mentioned that Hegra was the Lihyanite capital, while Musil believed that Madain Salih was the capital of the Lihyanies before the Nabataeans (Musil, 1926, 107). There were Nabataean inscriptions located on the road between Tay’ma and Madain Salih, which translate as saying that Masudu called himself the King of the Lihyanites. Those inscriptions are dated to the second century B.C. (Winnet and Reed, 1970, 120). As the inscriptions are engraved in Nabataean, it may be suggested that perhaps Masudu was a Nabataean. There seems to be no apparent reason for a Lihyanite to write in Nabataean script. Also Masudu is not listed among the known Nabataean kings, so perhaps he was a revolutionary who took over power from the Lihyanites for the time. Subsequently, Madain Salih took the place of Al-Ula as a trade centre.
Reference should be made to the numerous Thamudian inscriptions located in the area. Muslim historians wrote that Al-Hijr was the land of the Thamudians (Al-Istakhari, 24, Al-Hamawi, 2.220-221), Thamud being an old Arabian tribe. There are a large number of so-called Thamudian inscriptions located all over Arabia, which are usually short, and mention the name of the inscriber, or the tribe or the deities. Some contain the SLM (Salam),* a deity of Tayma attributed to the 6th century B.C. There is a general view among scholars that the Thamudians had no permanent land or settlement and that they never established a kingdom. It is likely that the “Thamud” was the name of a group of several of these tribes (Al-Talhi et al. 1988, 48). However, there is no archaeological evidence from the excavation which can be attributed to an early settlement prior to the Nabataeans.
The archaeological surveys conducted by Winnettt and Reed (1970), by Parr, Harding and Dayton (1971) and the current work do not provide any archaeological material from earlier settlements.

Page 179- 180 of report, p 194-195 of the document
http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/42225/1.hasCoversheetVersion/0000319.pdf


If you type the word "Thamud" into the saudi-archaeology website, you will see various artifacts that they left behind. They carved different images into rocks. Majeed Khan discusses them in great detail.

http://saudi-archaeology.com/?s=thamud&submit=Search

What there is no mention of is any of them carving any buildings out of rock. The Nabataeans did that.


Edited by TG12345 - 19 April 2014 at 10:16pm
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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2014 at 9:16pm
I also showed u quote of archaelogist who says Quran is correct abt strktres of Thamud.
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