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Yusuf.
 
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Quote Yusuf. Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2005 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by blond

"I don't think this allegorical interpretation of "idle speech" as music, is correct.

Assalamu alaikum,

You are free to agree or disagree with whatever you choose, but in this case you are diasgreeing with Abd Allah ibn Mas’ud, and Abd Allah ibn Abbas, radiallahu anhumaa, both Companions of the Noble Prophet, salallahu alaihi wassalam, as well as Hasan al-Basri, radiallahu anhu, the author of Tafsir al-Kathiir, the authoritative commentary on the Holy Qur'an.

What is rather shocking to me is that you are bold enough to invoke the Qur'anic injunction in 3:7 against three such indisputable authorities, two of whom walked with our Beloved Prophet, salallahu alaihi wassalam, and listened to his words. Do you really feel you have enough knowledge to do this?



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Quote ummziba Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2005 at 12:24pm

nadir,

I can find "fatwas" on the internet that say music is not haram.  There are as many opinions out there as people expressing them.  I feel you are being rather self righteous about this and very judgemental.  This is not a black and white, cut and dried issue, as all the varying opinions will attest to.

If you choose not to listen to music, good for you!  Please don't call those of us who do innovators and not Muslims - you have no right to judge, that is Allah's place.  Calling a Muslim, not a Muslim is a serious charge.

Take a look at these, if you wish:

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hF atwaID=90851

http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hF atwaID=40116

Perhaps you are prepared to call Ahmad Kutty and Qaradawi innovators and not Muslims?

I am getting a headache, I think I'll go listen to some soothing tunes .

Peace, ummziba (perhaps a lesser Muslim than you but a Muslim all the same)

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
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Quote blond Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2005 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by Yusuf.

Originally posted by blond

"I don't think this allegorical interpretation of "idle speech" as music, is correct.

What is rather shocking to me is that you are bold enough to invoke the Qur'anic injunction in 3:7 against three such indisputable authorities, two of whom walked with our Beloved Prophet, salallahu alaihi wassalam, and listened to his words. Do you really feel you have enough knowledge to do this?

W.A.S.

I am no scholar. I am just a baby in Islam. I meant no offense to you or anyone else. I will always admit I am wrong, when I am shown I am in error.

In the Ayat 3:7 that I quoted, I have seen versions where the mere placement a comma changes the meaning of the Ayat.

Example: "And none knows its interpretation save Allah, and those firmly rooted in knowledge. They say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord. And none mind except men of understanding."

If you notice, the translator placed the comma in such a way as to make the reader believe that they know the thinking of Allah. This is something that no one can claim, in my perspective. Allah is the Best Knower, not you and I or anyone claiming scholarship.

Therefore, the comma should be replaced with a period.

Example: "And none knows its interpretation save Allah. And those firmly rooted in knowledge, they say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord. And none mind except men of understanding."

And the period should be replaced with a comma.

Example: "And none knows its interpretation save Allah. And those firmly rooted in knowledge, they say: 'We believe in it, it is all from our Lord'. And none mind except men of understanding."

Again, no offense is intended. But, if the scholars want the credit for scholarship, then they must also take the blame for the condition of the divided Muslim world who follows their scholarship.

Thank you.



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Quote nadir Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2005 at 2:48pm

As-Salaamu Alaikum

 

 

Ahmad Ibn al-Naqib al-Misri in "The Reliance of the Traveller

“The basic premise of this school of thought is that the good of the acts of those morally responsible is what the Lawgiver (syn. Allah or His messenger [Allah bless him and give him peace]) has indicated is good by permitting it or asking it be done. And the bad is what the Lawgiver has indicated is bad by asking it not be done.

The good is not what reason considers good, nor the bad what reason considers bad. The measure of good and bad, according to this school of thought, is the sacred Law not reason (dis:W-3). ("Sacred Knowledge," Chapter One).”

I liked the post Yusuf, thank you, Al-Hamdulilah

It inspired me to answer my own question posted earlier (within the Unity subject), which I’d like Yusuf to correct if he thinks it to be wrong, Insha Allah.

A Muslim should submit to the Sacred Law (decreed within Islam) without having to under/overstand why!!!!! The amount of literature, contemplation, direct experience & sincerity, are only a means to achieve a greater level of submission, hence success (knowledge) is - how well one submits to Allah’s will.

 

One of the biggest problems facing the Muslim community is that, we all think - ‘I know best’, the only way to unite, once again under one ummah, is to humble ourselves, and adhere to the Sacred Law – ‘Allah knows best’.

Hence the above exert is beautiful when it mentions a good deed is not what we think it to be, but what the Lawgiver has deemed (syn. Allah or His messenger [Allah bless him and give him peace]) & vice versa.

 

Narrated Abu Huraira (may allah be pleased with him): The Prophet (SAW) said, “Leave me as I leave you, for the people who were before you were ruined because of their questions and their differences over their Prophets. So, if I forbid you to do something, then keep away from it. And if I order you to do something, then do of it as much as you can.” [9:391 O.B.]

To Ummziba,

“I feel you are being rather self righteous about this and very judgemental.”

I am not insecure enough to feel that I need to justify myself (& what I know) to you. If I follow Allah’s Last Messenger (SAW), I know I am on the right path, and he definitely did not play a musical instrument, so for me there is no doubt. However you do have doubt, because the topic is unclear.  

If music was Halal - & I was to act upon the above Hadith (with regards to listening/creating music), I would be ‘lost in a trance of music’. I would rather submit to Allah, & be cognizant of my true surroundings here-now, than be lost in (someone else’s) time zone from the past. You may wish to listen to (the same) songs over & over again, I might prefer to look up at the sky, where a cloud has never repeated the same shape.

Narrated ‘Abdullah bin ‘Amr (may Allah be pleased with him): I heard the Prophet (SAW) saying, “Allah will not deprive you of knowledge after He has given it to you, but it will be taken away through the death of the religious learned men with their knowledge. There will remain ignorant people who, when consulted, will give verdicts according to their own opinions, whereby they will mislead others & go astray.” [9:410 O.B.]

 

Al-Hamdulilah

 

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Quote semar Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2005 at 3:14pm

Salam,

But in many verses in the Quran Allah asks us to use our brain, our mind, to think. Thinking is always comes from "why". It's not fair if Allah asks us to use our brain and on the other hand we can not ask "why" to understand Allah's law.

If so we don't need any more Islamic scholars just follow the text that already written, it has everything, don't ask , just do it. So we will be "taqlid" (follow blindly).

This is probably why Muslim declined since 1100 because they discouraged to ask "why".

Allah knows best.

Salam/Peace,
Semar
The Prophet said: "Do not eat before you are hungry, and stop eating before you are full"
"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"
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Quote Yusuf. Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2005 at 3:32pm

Assalamu alaikum,

No offense taken whatsoever, blond.

First of all you should be credited with such a sincere determination to understand the meaning of the Ayaats fully, within their context. This is most admirable. However, one must remember that all translations of the Holy Qur'an are merely interpretations. Only someone with sound knowledge of Arabic as it was spoken at the time of the Noble Prophet, salallahu alaihi wassalam, should undertake this effort. I have been studying Arabic for a number of years and still do not feel comfortable enough to consider the nuances of the language.

You mention that Allah Knows Best, not the scholars, and of course I agree. However, if one's opinion varies from that of a specific scholar and one does not possess the linguistic and theological background to adequately address the issue, one should defer to the consensus of scholars who do possess these skills.

As I have learned Arabic, I have found that a number of verses in the Yusuf Ali translation of the Holy Qur'an are not precise, and in some cases other scholars have presented persuasive arguments that some of his translations are erroneous.

As you seem to be most enthusiastic about increasing your knowledge, I strongly recommend the following book:

An Introduction to Koranic and Classical Arabic: An Elementary Grammar of the Language by Wheeler M. Thackston 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0936347406/qid =1112225855/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-1536555-9364135?v=glance&a mp;a mp;a mp;a mp;s=books

This has greatly helped me learn the language of the Holy Qur'an, and Insha'Allah you will find it useful as well.

Allah Hafiz



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Quote Yusuf. Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2005 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by nadir

I liked the post Yusuf, thank you, Al-Hamdulilah

Walaikum assalam akhi. The "Reliance of the Traveller" is a text every Muslim should have on his/her bookshelf, and now there is a fine new translation Alhamdulillah by Sheikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller:

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/reliance.htm#reliance

I'll look at your post in the other thread Insha'Allah, akhi, but I'm afraid I am woefully limited in my knowledge and most likely won't be able to offer much.

Allah Hafiz

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Quote blond Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2005 at 4:40am

Thank you very much for your concideration and for the book that you offered to me.

I have studied the Arabic language and read Quran daily. I am no master of the language, but Insh Allah I will become one.

Your spirit seems to be one of nuturing the growth of Muslims. That's cool.

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