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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: A CHRISTIAN MAKES CLEAN CONFFESION Post Reply Post New Topic
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Bosnian
 
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Quote Bosnian Replybullet Topic: A CHRISTIAN MAKES CLEAN CONFFESION
    Posted: 28 March 2005 at 7:46am

         &nbs p;         &nbs p;     
         &nbs p;  
         &nbs p;    A DISCUSSION ON THE NATUTE OF TRUTH


Truth cannot be found in facts. It can only be derived from removing everything that cannot be true and seeing what is left. If indeed truth could be found in facts, then everyone who looked at the same facts would come to understand the same truths. This does not happen. A hundred people looking at the same facts can come up with a hundred different truths to explain what the facts mean.

This reality, however, does not stop each of us from believing we have found the better truth, the more accurate interpretation. People everywhere believe they have found the corner on the market of truth, and everyone else must be wrong. People will stand before each other, pound their chests and proclaim for all to hear that they know the truth that others have missed. But each of these people's truths are different. How can they all be truth if they contradict? How can Christians be so passionate about their brand of truth when the guy next to them is just as passionate about his brand? Such logic fails to budge the true believer. He or she will believe it more intently than anything else because it's a truth made up of their most basic beliefs and values. They believe their own truth because real truth has big missing pieces of information in it, making it fuzzy and uncomfortable. Their own truth is more palatable because they have filled in the missing parts with their own information, values, and beliefs, and it, therefore, makes more sense in their eyes. In essence, they have used their own, often-unprovable presumptions as a key or blueprint for how facts should be interpreted.

This key is called the "Basic Assumption." It defines how we see information. It defines how we see the world. It quite literally defines how we see everything.
 

Our Basic Assumption is what defines how we interpret the facts around us. And as our example shows, different assumptions can create wildly different truths from the same facts.

Basic Assumptions fill in the gaps when we're forced to interpret what the facts mean. But more than that, they link the facts together into whole realities that make sense to the person doing the interpreting.

It’s no wonder people can't agree on anything. We all think we know the truth, but all of our truths are mutually exclusive. Well, not all. Sometimes we band together into groups of people who share the same Basic Assumptions, and thus, the same interpretations of truth. But rather than diminish our differences, by grouping together we only provoke bigger conflicts between groups of people with different Basic Assumptions. With a group surrounding us (Christians) and telling us our interpretations are correct because they agree with their own interpretations, the members' Basic Assumptions are fortified and given an even greater role in creating a reality palatable to the interpreter. The group's truth becomes an absolute truth in the minds of its members. And everyone else's truths must be interpreted as falsehoods, misconceptions, or downright lies.

In America, people who believe the Bible to be completely accurate in every word have vastly different Basic Assumptions that the rest of society. They will interpret current events and find a way to fit them into biblical prophecy. Suddenly every headline becomes an omen of the end of the world; every non-biblically-based political organization is a tool of Satan; every cultural trend not in line with the New Testament is called a "decline of our Nation"; and the protection of freedoms that don't fit their beliefs is called "a loss of national morals."

And just as they test the world against their interpretations of truth based on their group's Basic Assumptions, they will even test their own people to make sure they are actual members, and not infiltrators wishing to dilute their beliefs. Anyone whose interpretations of current events are not the same as the groups will be labeled a heretic or an unbeliever.

Christians call these people "Backsliders." “Jews call them "Secular Jews." Conservatives call them "Closet Liberals." Liberals call them "Moral Conservatives." And every other group whose presence is formed around a communal Basic Assumption has its own way of perpetuating its truths in their most "pure" form.

 

  We Christians might fight and die, or even kill, for our interpretation of truth, but it won't make it any truer. All we can do is learn as much as we can and then remove everything that cannot be true and start seeing what is left, but at least it won't be a self- group's own basic assumptions, created one based on our personal Human conflict is a self-perpetuating problem.

MARK;16-17-18   

As mentioned previously, the religion of Jesus, as preached by him in the Bible in both word and actions, was a simple continuation, affirmation, and return to, the original message of Prophet Moses. The later concepts of "original sin," "atonement," etc. were not introduced into the teachings of Jesus by Jesus himself but by Paul and his followers. Paul and his followers succeeded in "spiritualizing" the message of Jesus and removing all obligations from it. Thus, the message of Jesus that was based upon faith and works was transformed into a message of faith without works and doctrines of sensationalism. To illustrate this point let us take the example of the following pop quiz:

1) Are you a Christian? Yes or no?  Yes I am !

2) Do you truly believe? Yes or no?

3) Have you been baptized? Yes or no?

4) Mark 16:16-18 "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. And these signs shall follow them that believe; (a) In my name shall they cast out devils; (b) they shall speak with new tongues; (c)They shall take up serpents; and (d) if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; (e) they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

5) Once again. Have you (a)been baptized and (b)do you believe?

a) If NOT then you WILL NOT BE SAVED.

b) If a Christian has been baptized and believes then they should exhibit the "signs" mentioned above, such as being able to drink any deadly poison (such as battery acid, etc.) and not be harmed. How about the other signs? Can all believing and baptized Christians lay their hand on any randomly selected terminally ill cancer patient or paraplegic and  have him rise completely cured? Does this not require that the Christian world be completely free of all illness, doctors, and hospitals? According to this verse, should not all-believing, baptized, Christians be able to do this if they truly believe are to be saved? If a Christian does not exhibit these signs, then does this not prove that they do not believe, and thus will not be saved.

Be aware that people rarely spend, as much time thinking about the issue as blindly believed.

 


 
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zulkharnain
 
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Quote zulkharnain Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2005 at 9:56pm
Quran replies to this
Christ was nothing but a prophet and not a God.
He use to eat and drink unlike God.
He was born to Virgin ie., Mary without a father as was Adam without parents.
he was lifted to heaven and was not killed to hold him as a miracle from God and save him from his enemies.
He shall be back on earth befor the day of judgement.
May Allah help us understand Quran
May Allah bless u
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tawhid
 
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Quote tawhid Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2005 at 10:48pm

Originally posted by zulkharnain

Quran replies to this
Christ was nothing but a prophet and not a God.
He use to eat and drink unlike God.
He was born to Virgin ie., Mary without a father as was Adam without parents.
he was lifted to heaven and was not killed to hold him as a miracle from God and save him from his enemies.
He shall be back on earth befor the day of judgement.
May Allah help us understand Quran

 

he died on the cross for our sins

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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 01 April 2005 at 5:18am
i can see a tackle approaching
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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IslamicGirl
 
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Quote IslamicGirl Replybullet Posted: 07 April 2005 at 6:00am

tawhid,

Prophet Jesus did not die on the cross.  Ok, imagine this... Why would God assign his status as a prophet and make him as one of our role models, then decide to make him die such a cruel death??  Do you think God would be so cruel?  From what I understand, God saved him, raised him... and promised that he will come to live on earth (for forty years or whatever) before the Day of Judgement.

Also, why would he die for our sins...?  If Jesus suffered and died for our sins (ie. meaning whatever we do on earth now is forgiven because of how he died as Christains know it), and we all believed that no matter what sins we commit on earth it's forgiven.. that would mean what?? ...we shouldn't feel guilty for commiting (eg. murder, rape) crimes.. because it's all been forgiven? 

Ok, another thing.. if that was the case, why would there be a heaven and hell.. don't you think God put us on earth to test our faith.. so, in the end.. we get weighed according to our good and bad deeds and get put in heaven or hell???

If there was no test, and Prophet Jesus has forgiven us for our sins already, what's the point of this world... the test? 

Sorry, but I agree with zulkharnain.


Salams.

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IslamicGirl
 
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Quote IslamicGirl Replybullet Posted: 07 April 2005 at 6:22am

God is not to be associated with anyone/thing else(#).  We cannot say anyone/thing is at the same level as God.  Isn't this contradicting one of the 10 commandments, the 'above' is what one of the 10 cmndmnts says, but not in these words, anyway.. u'll get my point (look for example):

This is WRONG>>>Jesus is the son of GOD(*) (like Christains say) <<(BIG CONTRADICTION=WHY?? meaning to say one thing (*), then totally proving it wrong(#) .

(God is immortal=doesn't need rest, food, clothes etc...), whereas Jesus was & will be (when he comes back) a mortal being just like us, ie. ate, slept, prayed like us). 

If you read in the Bible, it even says that Jesus fell to his knees and bowed his head to the ground when he prayed to God.  This is how Muslims all over the world still pray today. 
I also read in the Bible, it is shameful for a woman to keep her head uncovered while praying.. so shameful, that she might as well shave all her hair off.  We Muslims cover our head and walk into our mosques today, just like the Christains clothed themselves in the time of the prophets (according to the Bible).   

Example of how I feel in a Mosque>>>  When I, as a Muslim walk into a Mosque, I feel so respected and close to God, why??  I cover my flesh/hair.. and feel free and so close when I pray to God. 
From what I know, you can walk into a church with tight/short clothes on.. hair uncovered.. what's the point?? showing yourself off... making yourself attractive to the opposite sex.  How can you give your undivided attention to God when you are displaying yourself on the outside...?  Wouldn't this make u feel opressed and self-concious, I know it would for me.

This is why Islam is such a Beautiful and Unique Religion.  I'm not saying every Christain is like so, but from what i've seen.

Salams.

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IslamicGirl
 
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Quote IslamicGirl Replybullet Posted: 07 April 2005 at 6:42am

Babies Unclean????

Why does a new born baby have to be baptised/christened when they are born??  They have not even lived to have sinned!

In Islam, baby's are a blessing and born pure, God making a human as a result of 2 human beings is a beautiful miracle!  


Females Oppressed????

In Islam: God forgave Eve for eating the poison apple. 

From what I know of the bible: God punishes all females after Eve sinned by eating the poison apple.. as a result of her sin, punished all females born into the earth.   It is said that as a result of this sin: God makes females go through nothing but pain (menstural pain, childbirth etc..).  Why would God be so cruel to females and not to males when Adam ate it too??? 

In Islam, God is Most Merciful, Oft Forgiving..  the same sin is put whether you are male or female.  ADAM and EVE were forgiven equally! 

Bible: Isn't it a bit weired to say that God did not forgive Eve?  Thinking God would punish all women (as a result of this) is strange, because Adam at the apple too, he didn't make him go through all the pains we females go through today!



Edited by IslamicGirl
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 11 April 2005 at 12:55pm

Probably somebody has to take the test that Bosnian has quoted from Mark 16:16-18 before he claims to have full belief in the book. However, before anyone trying to test his faith, he better search a little on the web and beware what he is upto. For a breif review as what happened in the past, kindly read this aritcle.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/snake/snake8.html

Cheers!

 

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