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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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Fatah-Momin
 
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Quote Fatah-Momin Replybullet Posted: 07 November 2005 at 8:28pm

According to Imam Ghazali"The person who entertains the idea that Yazid had given orders to kill Hz. Hussain[ra] is a fool. The details of this incidence can not be fully ascertained as the facts are shrouded by narrow mindedness"

The fact Ali bin Hussain[Zainul Abedin] who susrvived the massacre took the oath of allegiance at Damascus, throws the light on the intentions and position taken by Hz. Hussain[ra] at the later stage.

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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 08 November 2005 at 7:08am

Very interesting. There are couple of things that need little clarification. In that you said "...Nomination of succesor Khalifah was not an innovation as there was precedence for it. Hz. Abu Bakr[ra] had nominated Hz. Umar[ra] as his successor. ..."

In this comparison, one must not forget to note that Hz. Umar's nomination was more of a recommendation to the Muslim Umma without any baisness of heirship. Definitely this is not the case with the nomination of Yazid by his father. Isn't it?

Similarly, you said "A son succeeding the father was also not objectionable as there was precedence to it. Hz. Hassan[ra] succeeded Hz. Ali[ra]  moreover those who bitterly criticised the nomination themselves believed in Imam, most of whome succeeded their fathers."

Is this a sufficient justification? I don't think so. What if I object to such an appointment who is definitely not among those who believe in nominations of Imamat from their fathers? Seconly, in this context, if we review the incident of Hz. Ali got murdered during his time of Khalifa, I don't know when was Hz. Hassan got nomination for such a Khalaafat? Some say that he (Hz Hassan) was asked by the people around to take over the seat temporarily till the new Khalifa is decided. There are certain missing links in your history that definitely need more elaboration in this matter.

Then you quoted that " Th first amongst my followers who will invade Ceaser's city will be forgiven their sins."
[Sahi Al; Bukhari, Vol. I P. 109, Translation by Mohd. muhsin Khan]
" In this, can you elaborate as who was "Ceaser" and which city at the time of Rasulallah (and not after wards) was known as "Ceaser's City"? On a more important note, one may ask as to why was such a reward was prophesized for an invasion? Was Prophet Mohammad got hopeless (Naoozbillah) that Allah's rehma for Ceaser would not come and would not make him obeident to Allah till his country was invaded? I don't think so? 

In the last, brother can you tell us what was the age of Hz. Ali bin Hussain [Zainul Abedin] who survived the massacre, when he took the oath of allegiance at Damascus? I thought he was just a kid at that time. Isn't it? Then what is the significance of his allegiance? 



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Fatah-Momin
 
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Quote Fatah-Momin Replybullet Posted: 08 November 2005 at 8:18pm

AhmadJoyia:" In this, can you elaborate as who was "Ceaser" and which city at the time of Rasulallah (and not after wards) was known as "Ceaser's City"? On a more important note, one may ask as to why was such a reward was prophesized for an invasion? Was Prophet Mohammad got hopeless (Naoozbillah) that Allah's rehma for Ceaser would not come and would not make him obeident to Allah till his country was invaded? I don't think so? 

 

It appears that I am pinching on your sensitive nerve, are you one of the Munkir Hadith guys? the latest rage in Pakistan among liberal people. Nabi Allah[saw] only said what was told to him by Allah, if he[saw] prophesized and incident which did come to pass, it goes to prove his vision of the future of Ummah. Why are you having problem accepting the hadith which has been accepted by the scholars of Ummah for last 1400yrs, if you know better then them please put forth you argument. why do you not open up and say what is on your mind, so we can have a candid debate.

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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 08 November 2005 at 9:03pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

What do traditional scholars say about that hadith, a hadith is worthless with out a proper tafsir.

Sunni scholars like to stay silent about people such as yazid but no one denies his excess.
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 09 November 2005 at 7:31am

O my dear brother Fateh-Momin, why are you so apt in labeling others, though they merely ask you "reasonable" questions? A person's attitude reflects his intelligence and his knowledge more through logical and rational thinking and less from memorizing the text without understanding. Kindly see if you have any answers to my questions from logical analysis than from any thing else. One way to go about is to look, as what bro rami has also indicated, as what traditional scholars say about that hadith. This is more prudent especially once we know from the history that it was Heraclius who was incharge of Byzantium at the time of Rasulllah and not Ceaser. Following is the historical account of the message of Prophet Mohammad to Heraclius and then his reaction to this message. The obvious dicotomy of your narration and this historical account is quite visible. Kindly refer to The Life of Muhammad (Allah's peace and blessing be upon him) by Muhammad Husayn Haykal Translated by Isma'il Razi A. al-Faruqi .

In this book the author writes "...Muhammad mentioned to them that he was planning to send messengers to Heraclius, the Archbishop of Alexandria; to al Harith of Ghassan, King of al Hirah; to al Harith of Himyar, King of Yaman; and to the Negus of Abyssinia, calling them all to Islam. The companions approved and made for him a seal out of silver which read "Muhammad, the Prophet of God." Muhammad sent letters to these chiefs, an example of which is the message sent to Heraclius."

He further writes "...it is known that the Prophet's letter did reach Heraclius, and that the Emperor was not irritated by it. Instead of sending an army to conquer Arabia, Heraclius did in fact send a gentle letter in reply to Muhammad's message. It was this gentle response to Muhammad's message that a number of historians mistook as meaning that Heraclius had joined the ranks of Islam..."

 

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Fatah-Momin
 
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Quote Fatah-Momin Replybullet Posted: 09 November 2005 at 10:23pm

Let me continue on the event of Seige of Constantinople, before I answer the post by AhmadJoyia as he use to making statement which he regrets in the end.

In the year 48 Hijrah when the Byzantine emperor Constantine was murdered, it was Mu'awiyah's turn to take advantage of the situation. He made preparations and organized a two pronged attack, one from the land and other from the sea. He got 1700 war ships constructed. Cyprus was already conquered. The other small island near Greece was conquered. Cyprus was used as the Naval Base. With these preparations the Muslim fleet started. There was no opposition when the Muslim fleet sailedthrough Dardanelles. Thus the muslims laid diege of Constatinople. Mu'awiyah sent another force by land under the command of Yazid Bin Mu'awiyah. The siege lasted for more then seven years. The Muslims fleet Suffered heavy losses because of Greek Fire. The siege had to lifted for the following reasons:

 

1. Inspite of preparations the Muslim fleet could not match the Byzantine fleet

2. The city og Constantinople was strongly fortified.

3. The Byzantines were having Greek Fire which the Muslims faced for the first time.

This was the first campaign by the Muslims to occupy Constantinople. The Prophet[saw] had given good tidings of paradise who took part in the campaign. Abdullah bin Zubair, Abdullah Bin Abbas, Hussain bin Ali [may Allah be pleased with them all] and other distinguised Muslims joioned the campaign under the banner of Yazid Bin Mu'awiyah

 

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Fatah-Momin
 
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Quote Fatah-Momin Replybullet Posted: 09 November 2005 at 10:30pm

The Envoy to Caesar, King of Rome:

Al-Bukhari gave a long narration of the contents of the letter sent by the Prophet to Hercules, king of the Byzantines:

"In the Name of Allâh,
the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

From Muhammad, the slave of Allâh and His Messenger to Hercules, king of the Byzantines.

Blessed are those who follow true guidance. I invite you to embrace Islam so that you may live in security. If you come within the fold of Islam, Allâh will give you double reward, but in case you turn your back upon it, then the burden of the sins of all your people shall fall on your shoulders.

  • "Say (O Muhammad ): ‘O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but Allâh, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides Allâh.’ Then, if they turn away, say: ‘Bear witness that we are Muslims.’ " [3:64][]
  • The Muslim envoy, Dihyah bin Khalifah Al-Kalbi, was ordered to hand the letter over to king of Busra, who would in turn, send it to Caesar.

    Incidentally, Abu Sufyan bin Harb, who by that time had not embraced Islam, was summoned to the court and Hercules asked him many questions about Muhammad and the religion which he preached. The testimony which this avowed enemy of the Prophet gave regarding the personal excellence of the Prophet’s character and the good that Islam was doing the human race, left Hercules wonder-struck.

    Al-Bukhâri, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, narrated that Hercules sent for Abu Sufyan and his companions, who happened to be trading in Ash-Sham, Jerusalem. That was during the truce that had been concluded between the polytheists of Quraish and the Messenger of Allâh . Hercules, seated amongst his chiefs of staff, asked, "Who amongst you is the nearest relative to the man who claims to be a Prophet?" "I (Abu Sufyan) replied: ‘I am the nearest relative to him from amongst the group.’ So they made me sit in front of him and made my companions sit behind me. Then he called upon his translator and said (to him). ‘Tell them (i.e. Abu Sufyan’s companions) that I am going to ask him (i.e. Abu Sufyan) regarding that men who claims to be a Prophet. So if he tells a lie, they should contradict him (instantly)’. By Allâh had I not been afraid that my companions would consider me a liar, I would have told lies", Abu Sufyan later said.

    Abu Sufyan’s testimony went as follows: "Muhammad descends from a noble family. No one of his family happened to assume kingship. His followers are those deemed weak with numbers ever growing. He neither tells lies nor betrays others, we fight him and he fights us but with alternate victory. He bids people to worship Allâh Alone with no associate, and abandon our fathers’ beliefs. He orders us to observe prayer, honesty, abstinence and maintain strong family ties." "Hercules, on hearing this testimony, turned to his translator bidding him to communicate to us his following impression which reveals full conviction in the truthfulness of Muhammad’s Prophethood: ‘I fully realize that Prophets come from noble families; he does not affect any previous example of Prophethood. Since none of his ancestors was a monarch, we cannot then allege that he is a man trying to reclaim his father’s monarchy. So long as he does not tell lies to people, he is for the more reason, immune to telling lies as regards Allâh. Concerning his followers being those deemed weak with numbers ever growing, it is something that goes in agreement with questions of Faith until this latter assumes its full dimensions geographically and demographically. I have understood that no instance of apostasy has as yet appeared among his followers, and this points to the bliss of Faith that finds its abode in the human heart. Betrayal, as I see, is alien to him because real Prophets hold betrayal in abhorrence. Bidding worship of Allâh with no associates, observance of prayer, honesty and abstinence and prohibition of paganism are traits bound to subject to him all my possessions. I have already known that a Prophet must arise but it has never occurred to me that he will be an Arab from among you. If I was sure I would be faithful to him, I might hope to meet him, and if I were with him, I would wash his feet.’ Hercules then requested that the Prophet’s letter be read. The observations of the emperor and finally the definite and clear-cut exposition of the Islamic message could not but create a tense atmosphere amongst the clergy present at the court. We were ordered to go out." Abu Sufyan said, "While coming out, I said to my companions, ‘The matter of Ibn Abi Kabshah (i.e. Muhammad ) has become so prominent that even the king of Banu Al-Asfar (i.e. the Romans) is afraid of him.’ So I continued to believe that Allâh’s Messenger would be victorious, till Allâh made me embrace Islam." The king did not embrace Islam — for it was differently ordained. However, the Muslim envoy was returned to Madinah with the felicitations of the emperor.

    On his way back to Madinah, Dihyah Al-Kalbi was intercepted by people from Judham tribe in Hasmi, who looted the presents sent to the Prophet . Zaid bin Haritha at the head of five hundred men was despatched to that spot, inflicted heavy losses on those people and captured 1000 camels, 5000 of their cattle and a hundred women and boys. The chief of Judham who had embraced Islam filed a complaint with the Prophet, who gave a positive response to the former’s protest, and ordered that all the spoils and captives be returned.

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    Fatah-Momin
     
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    Quote Fatah-Momin Replybullet Posted: 09 November 2005 at 10:35pm

     " Th first amongst my followers who will invade Ceaser's city will be forgiven their sins."
    [Sahi Al; Bukhari, Vol. I P. 109, Translation by Mohd. muhsin Khan]

     

    Now if we read the hadith wording carefully it explicitly state "INVADE CEASER'S CITY" Mr.AhmadJoyia has different meaning of the the word "invade" in his vocabulory it mean to send "Envoy with a letter of Dawah"

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