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Quote 1914 Replybullet Topic: Was Isaac the only son of Ibrahim by wife Sarah
    Posted: 25 February 2014 at 7:28pm

Was Isaac the “only son” of Abraham by his wife Sarah?

What does the Holy Scriptures  and Christians say? What does the Koran and Muslims say? Does it really matter?

S2:135  And they say, "Be Jews or Christians, then you will be guided." Say (to them, O Muhammad Peace be upon him ), "Nay, (We follow) only the religion of Ibrahim (Abraham), Hanifa [Islamic Monotheism, i.e. to worship none but Allah (Alone)]

1 Chronicles 1:28 The sons of Abraham were Isaac and Ish′ma·el

May you all have peace. I first would like to say, that I and millions of others like myself in over 238 lands believe that ‘El Sha dai’ is one and that there is no other. This post is not to cause division or to argue about who is right and who is wrong but to establish truth from the word of ‘Elo him’ or Allah.  Does both Holy Books support the truth that Ishmael and Isaac were sons of Abraham? Yes! Does both Holy books supports the fact that Isaac was the ‘only son’ of Sarah? Yes! Christians and Muslims both agree.

Since both books agree that Isaac was the ‘only’ son of Abraham by his wife Sarah, why is this such an age old debate? One word, Caliph! Islam is looking for a successor and that one needs to come from Ishmael. However, what did God promise? May I direct your attention to Genesis 17:15, 16 And God went on to say to Abraham: “As for Sar′ai your wife … 16 And I will bless her and also give you a son from her; and I will bless her and she shall become nations; kings of peoples will come from her.

As sons of Abraham are we letting our emotions get in the way of Holy prophecy? Are we causing division because we want it to be through Hagar and not Sarah? Who knows best? But, even Abraham let emotions get in the way

Genesis 17: 18 After that Abraham said to the [true] God: “O that Ish′ma·el might live before you!” (But, listen again to what was repeated)19 To this God said: “Sarah your wife is indeed bearing you a son, and you must call his name Isaac. And I will establish my covenant with him for a covenant to time indefinite to his seed after him.

(Was Abraham’s cry ignored?) 20 But as regards Ish′ma·el I have heard you. Look! I will bless him and will make him fruitful and will multiply him very, very much. He will certainly produce twelve chieftains, and I will make him become a great nation. (Abraham was blessed again but also reminded again)

21 However, my covenant I shall establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this appointed time next year.” Even Muslim scholars are divided on this subject for fear of losing their place? But, who knows best?

Like Jesus, why was Isaac a miracle baby? Does it really matter? Yes, it does. Because a vital link in the line of descent would lead to a Mighty King and a Kingdom.

 

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 26 February 2014 at 3:30pm
1914, you still do not seem to understand that the issue is not who made what covenant with who, or whether Isaac was Abraham's son through Sarah.  The issue is why does the Biblical story contradict itself.  You have not explained these things.  For your convenience, here are the links to the original article that you responded to and my replies to you:

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/01/ishmael-and-isaac-in-quran-and-bible.html

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical.html

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical_17.html

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical_19.html

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical_25.html

Anyone else reading this thread can see for themselves the inconsistencies of the Biblical story as well as the weak arguments you have made to explain them. 

Throughout the whole discussion, you have exhibited a tendency to reply with hostility and ad hominem attacks.  And when you have actually tried to stick to the issue, you have still often gone off on tangents.  The issue is simple: why is the Biblical story self-contradictory?  Why does the Bible claim that Ishmael was a teenager yet describes him as a defenseless child?  Why does the Bible refer to Isaac as the "only son" when a few chapters before and later, it describes Ishmael as Abraham's son?        
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote 1914 Replybullet Posted: 26 February 2014 at 5:03pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

The issue is simple: why is the Biblical story self-contradictory?  Why does the Bible claim that Ishmael was a teenager yet describes him as a defenseless child?  Why does the Bible refer to Isaac as the "only son" when a few chapters before and later, it describes Ishmael as Abraham's son?  

Okay, don’t start dancing around this one question like you did with the links provided, I’m tuned into this one site for now. But, if so simple then just answer the question at hand, “Was Isaac the ‘only son’ of Abraham by his wife Sarah yes or no? By your answer or lack thereof we will see who and what is self-contradictory and if you will dance around it some more.  If the issue is so simple which I agree with you %100, why are ONLY Muslim scholars divided on it. If Abraham, the father of Ishmael accepted the term ‘only son’ and Ishmael losing all his inheritance why cannot ALL Muslims accept it? Why make allegations that cannot even be backed up by the Koran. The Koran does not even say that Ishmael was the child of sacrifice only Muslims. However, the Bible does say Isaac!

Genesis 22:2 And he went on to say: “Take, please, your son, your only son whom you so love, Isaac, and make a trip to the land of Mo·ri′ah and there offer him up as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I shall designate to you.”

Genesis 22:15 And YHWH’s angel proceeded to call to Abraham the second time out of the heavens 16 and to say: “‘By myself I do swear,’ is the utterance of YHWH, ‘that by reason of the fact that you have done this thing and you have not withheld your son, your only one, 17 I shall surely bless you and I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore; and your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies. 18 And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.’

With your allegations this time produce reliable documents as evidence to show these statements were altered. Show us evidence NOT fanciful allegations and unfounded accusations. You can even use your Koran to tried to support your allegations but I doubt you’ll be successful as you haven’t been so far.  

So, again “Was Isaac the ‘only son’ of Abraham by his wife Sarah as Genesis stated, its either yes or no?

Perhaps this may help you decide:

One Muslim scholar, Shaykh Hamza Yusuf of the Zaytuna Institute, candidly admits that: ... This was the child that Abraham was given, and there is a difference of opinion about who that child was. The majority of the later scholars say it was Ismail, many of the early scholars said it was Ishaq. The word of God says Isaac in several places.

The account naming Isaac comes down to us through Abu Kurayb - Zayd b. al-Hubab - al-Hasan b. Dinar - 'Ali b. Zayd b. Jud'an - al-Hasan - al-Ahnaf b. Qays - al-'Abbas b. 'Abd al-Muttalib - THE PROPHET in a conversation in which he said, "Then we ransomed him with a tremendous victim." And he also said, he is Isaac.

According to Abu Kurayb - Ibn Yaman-Mubarak - al-Hasan-al-Ahnaf b. Qays-al - 'Abbas b. 'Abd al-Muttalib: The quote, "Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim," refers to Isaac.

According to al-Husayn b. Yazid al-Tahhan - Ibn Idris - Dawud b. Abi Hind - 'Ikrimah - Ibn 'Abbas: The one whom Abraham was ordered to sacrifice was Isaac.

According to Ya'qub - Ibn 'Ulayyah - Dawud - 'Ikrimah - Ibn 'Abbas: The victim was Isaac.

According to Ibn al-Muthanna - Muhammad b. Ja'far - Shu'bah - Abu Ishaq - Abu al-Ahwas: A certain man boasted to Ibn Mas'ud, "I am so-and-so son of so-and-so, son of the noble elders." And 'Abdallah said,"This is Joseph b. Jacob, son of Isaac the victim of God, son of Abraham the Friend of God."

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 27 February 2014 at 7:26pm
Originally posted by 1914

Originally posted by islamispeace

The issue is simple: why is the Biblical story self-contradictory?  Why does the Bible claim that Ishmael was a teenager yet describes him as a defenseless child?  Why does the Bible refer to Isaac as the "only son" when a few chapters before and later, it describes Ishmael as Abraham's son?  

Okay, don’t start dancing around this one question like you did with the links provided, I’m tuned into this one site for now. But, if so simple then just answer the question at hand, “Was Isaac the ‘only son’ of Abraham by his wife Sarah yes or no? By your answer or lack thereof we will see who and what is self-contradictory and if you will dance around it some more.  If the issue is so simple which I agree with you %100, why are ONLY Muslim scholars divided on it. If Abraham, the father of Ishmael accepted the term ‘only son’ and Ishmael losing all his inheritance why cannot ALL Muslims accept it? Why make allegations that cannot even be backed up by the Koran. The Koran does not even say that Ishmael was the child of sacrifice only Muslims. However, the Bible does say Isaac!

Genesis 22:2 And he went on to say: “Take, please, your son, your only son whom you so love, Isaac, and make a trip to the land of Mo·ri′ah and there offer him up as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I shall designate to you.”

Genesis 22:15 And YHWH’s angel proceeded to call to Abraham the second time out of the heavens 16 and to say: “‘By myself I do swear,’ is the utterance of YHWH, ‘that by reason of the fact that you have done this thing and you have not withheld your son, your only one, 17 I shall surely bless you and I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand that are on the seashore; and your seed will take possession of the gate of his enemies. 18 And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice.’

With your allegations this time produce reliable documents as evidence to show these statements were altered. Show us evidence NOT fanciful allegations and unfounded accusations. You can even use your Koran to tried to support your allegations but I doubt you’ll be successful as you haven’t been so far.  

So, again “Was Isaac the ‘only son’ of Abraham by his wife Sarah as Genesis stated, its either yes or no?

Perhaps this may help you decide:

One Muslim scholar, Shaykh Hamza Yusuf of the Zaytuna Institute, candidly admits that: ... This was the child that Abraham was given, and there is a difference of opinion about who that child was. The majority of the later scholars say it was Ismail, many of the early scholars said it was Ishaq. The word of God says Isaac in several places.

The account naming Isaac comes down to us through Abu Kurayb - Zayd b. al-Hubab - al-Hasan b. Dinar - 'Ali b. Zayd b. Jud'an - al-Hasan - al-Ahnaf b. Qays - al-'Abbas b. 'Abd al-Muttalib - THE PROPHET in a conversation in which he said, "Then we ransomed him with a tremendous victim." And he also said, he is Isaac.

According to Abu Kurayb - Ibn Yaman-Mubarak - al-Hasan-al-Ahnaf b. Qays-al - 'Abbas b. 'Abd al-Muttalib: The quote, "Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim," refers to Isaac.

According to al-Husayn b. Yazid al-Tahhan - Ibn Idris - Dawud b. Abi Hind - 'Ikrimah - Ibn 'Abbas: The one whom Abraham was ordered to sacrifice was Isaac.

According to Ya'qub - Ibn 'Ulayyah - Dawud - 'Ikrimah - Ibn 'Abbas: The victim was Isaac.

According to Ibn al-Muthanna - Muhammad b. Ja'far - Shu'bah - Abu Ishaq - Abu al-Ahwas: A certain man boasted to Ibn Mas'ud, "I am so-and-so son of so-and-so, son of the noble elders." And 'Abdallah said,"This is Joseph b. Jacob, son of Isaac the victim of God, son of Abraham the Friend of God."



Here is my response:

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical_27.html

I suggest that you do some honest research and don't simply plagiarize from Christian apologetic websites!  Wink
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote 1914 Replybullet Posted: 01 March 2014 at 9:06pm

So it’s admitted that Isaac was the ‘only son’ of Abraham through Sarah but yet he still refutes it. That is exactly what the verse is saying to its readers and that’s all I was saying. But, for Muslims they feel slighted since Ishmael was left out of everything imaginable. Get over it! Esau and other first born in the Bible were left out of their inheritance as well. That is the price they had to pay for their error. Abraham got over it! Even Hagar got over it! Why cannot Muslims? For the simple reason as I stated in the outset, they need Ishmael to be the child of sacrifice instead of Isaac, which by the way is the BIGGEST plagiarism in existence today; the Koran copying that Bible account of Abraham and then changing the name from Isaac being the child of sacrifice to Ishmael.  

But, what else is there? Without Ishmael, Islam loses its roots and identity. And without that they have no prophet and no Koran, which means they have no future, much like Ishmael. But, that is the least of their worries.   

Revelation 22:18 “I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll;

Islamispeace statement was and I quote “The problem is that the verse simply says “take your son, your only son…” without mentioning Sarah.”

Seriously, that’s their hang up, “without mentioning Sarah” really? Does the Koran Mention Ishmael as the child of sacrifice? No! But, their hang up is the Bible say’s ‘only son’ without mentioning Sarah. Why would the Bible have to unless there was some foul intentions? Everyone knew Isaac belonged to Sarah and Abraham, even you as was admitted. Why didn’t the Koran mention Ishmael if it was truly him? Why didn’t Hagar mention it since she was the mother of Ishmael? Your denial may cost you. But, like Ahmed Deedat and other Muslim debaters they put the blame on the Bible rather than their Koran when it is Muslims who say it was Ishmael not Jews or Christians. Their line or reasoning is warp and suspect at BEST!

But, even in your own defense your references mentions exactly what I said before in point #5 . . .

Point 5 It was after Hagar and Ishmael was dismissed from Abraham’s household the promise and or covenant was made, who at that time the “only” son of Abraham and Sarah was Isaac.  

***Your own references said “”Consequently, when God commands Abraham to sacrifice his only son (2 i 11), Isaac is quite literally…the only son the patriarch has.””***

Did you catch that? “Isaac is quite literally…the “only son” ….This is your references not mine. Case PROVEN once again!

Next, in an even more desperate attempt he uses Jewish apocalyptic literature. Apocryphal and Pseudepigrapha (literally meaning ‘falsely attributed writings’) books that were never accepted as canonical  as his primary reference tool. Books that promote astrology and angel worship and written by Jewish Theorist. Books full of unfulfilled prophecies. Books such as “The Assumption of Moses,” “The Apocalypse of Ezra” and the “Book of Jubilees.” This is really your best proof of alterations? Seriously? None of the Bible writers ever mention any of these books or authors by name, not even Jesus but obviously these books are your only line of defense. 

And even in this sad attempt regarding the term only son, your references didn’t say Ishmael was the child of sacrifice. Whereas some of the Muslims scholars that I provided indeed said it was Isaac, so you can’t get more conclusive then that.   

But, again it does show zealousness to promote falsehood just like your hero Ahmed Deedat. Islamispeace then went on to say and I quote “Common sense would indicate that this verse makes no sense since Ishmael was also Abraham’s son. the Christian has failed thus far to offer a reasonable clarification”

So answer this question islamispeace, from a Muslims point of view where is the common sense in the Koran omitting Ishmael as the child of sacrifice? It is clear as the Bible noted and as was admitted, Isaac was the ‘only son’ of Abraham by wife Sarah. On the other hand it is Muslims who desperately need Ishmael not Jews or Christian’s, a FACT that seems to escape the Muslim community. I don’t know who Muslims have talked to in the past regarding this subject but it is this Ahmed Deedat syndrome or this narcissistic approach of the Bible (a preoccupation on how much the Bible is wrong and the Koran correct) that prevents Muslims as a whole from moving forward, a trait that was exhibited in Ishmael from long ago.        

To sum it all up, islamispeace does admit that there were  disagreement among Muslim scholars where some of them believe Isaac was the son of sacrifice and not Ishmael. So, there are no contradictions as far as those Muslim scholars are concern and they didn’t need to resort to Jewish apocalyptic literature to disprove it.   



Edited by 1914 - 01 March 2014 at 9:14pm
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 02 March 2014 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by 1914

So it’s admitted that Isaac was the ‘only son’ of Abraham through Sarah but yet he still refutes it. That is exactly what the verse is saying to its readers and that’s all I was saying. But, for Muslims they feel slighted since Ishmael was left out of everything imaginable. Get over it! Esau and other first born in the Bible were left out of their inheritance as well. That is the price they had to pay for their error. Abraham got over it! Even Hagar got over it! Why cannot Muslims? For the simple reason as I stated in the outset, they need Ishmael to be the child of sacrifice instead of Isaac, which by the way is the BIGGEST plagiarism in existence today; the Koran copying that Bible account of Abraham and then changing the name from Isaac being the child of sacrifice to Ishmael.  

But, what else is there? Without Ishmael, Islam loses its roots and identity. And without that they have no prophet and no Koran, which means they have no future, much like Ishmael. But, that is the least of their worries.   

Revelation 22:18 “I am bearing witness to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll;

Islamispeace statement was and I quote “The problem is that the verse simply says “take your son, your only son…” without mentioning Sarah.”

Seriously, that’s their hang up, “without mentioning Sarah” really? Does the Koran Mention Ishmael as the child of sacrifice? No! But, their hang up is the Bible say’s ‘only son’ without mentioning Sarah. Why would the Bible have to unless there was some foul intentions? Everyone knew Isaac belonged to Sarah and Abraham, even you as was admitted. Why didn’t the Koran mention Ishmael if it was truly him? Why didn’t Hagar mention it since she was the mother of Ishmael? Your denial may cost you. But, like Ahmed Deedat and other Muslim debaters they put the blame on the Bible rather than their Koran when it is Muslims who say it was Ishmael not Jews or Christians. Their line or reasoning is warp and suspect at BEST!

But, even in your own defense your references mentions exactly what I said before in point #5 . . .

Point 5 It was after Hagar and Ishmael was dismissed from Abraham’s household the promise and or covenant was made, who at that time the “only” son of Abraham and Sarah was Isaac.  

***Your own references said “”Consequently, when God commands Abraham to sacrifice his only son (2 i 11), Isaac is quite literally…the only son the patriarch has.””***

Did you catch that? “Isaac is quite literally…the “only son” ….This is your references not mine. Case PROVEN once again!

Next, in an even more desperate attempt he uses Jewish apocalyptic literature. Apocryphal and Pseudepigrapha (literally meaning ‘falsely attributed writings’) books that were never accepted as canonical  as his primary reference tool. Books that promote astrology and angel worship and written by Jewish Theorist. Books full of unfulfilled prophecies. Books such as “The Assumption of Moses,” “The Apocalypse of Ezra” and the “Book of Jubilees.” This is really your best proof of alterations? Seriously? None of the Bible writers ever mention any of these books or authors by name, not even Jesus but obviously these books are your only line of defense. 

And even in this sad attempt regarding the term only son, your references didn’t say Ishmael was the child of sacrifice. Whereas some of the Muslims scholars that I provided indeed said it was Isaac, so you can’t get more conclusive then that.   

But, again it does show zealousness to promote falsehood just like your hero Ahmed Deedat. Islamispeace then went on to say and I quote “Common sense would indicate that this verse makes no sense since Ishmael was also Abraham’s son. the Christian has failed thus far to offer a reasonable clarification”

So answer this question islamispeace, from a Muslims point of view where is the common sense in the Koran omitting Ishmael as the child of sacrifice? It is clear as the Bible noted and as was admitted, Isaac was the ‘only son’ of Abraham by wife Sarah. On the other hand it is Muslims who desperately need Ishmael not Jews or Christian’s, a FACT that seems to escape the Muslim community. I don’t know who Muslims have talked to in the past regarding this subject but it is this Ahmed Deedat syndrome or this narcissistic approach of the Bible (a preoccupation on how much the Bible is wrong and the Koran correct) that prevents Muslims as a whole from moving forward, a trait that was exhibited in Ishmael from long ago.        

To sum it all up, islamispeace does admit that there were  disagreement among Muslim scholars where some of them believe Isaac was the son of sacrifice and not Ishmael. So, there are no contradictions as far as those Muslim scholars are concern and they didn’t need to resort to Jewish apocalyptic literature to disprove it.   



My rebuttal:

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/03/response-to-christian-about-biblical.html
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote 1914 Replybullet Posted: 06 March 2014 at 8:24pm

What actually is islamispeace trying to promote on his blog, more allegations of the inconsistencies and contradictions of the Bible, using unsubstantiated evidence to support his lack of knowledge of the Genesis account of Abraham and his household. It’s alarming to say the least that the Koran has left the Muslim community as a whole guessing and coming to its own conclusion as to why the term ‘only son’ was used toward Isaac in the scriptures, when in fact it would have easily been resolved if the Koran’s message were more decisive and convincing. As demonstrated in this topic, a Muslim first line of defense is always to discredit the scriptures and say they were corrupted especially where it shows favor to Abraham and Isaac, this animosity continue to exist down till this day.

The Koran is the first Holy book for Muslims. However, it is the Koran that is very vague and omits any promises giving to Ishmael through Abraham, not the Bible. Muslims claim Muhammad as a descendant of Ishmael. The scriptures on the other hand are very clear on who will carry on Abraham’s legacy and who will fight against it

In his first blog “The Islamic story” Ishmael name IS NOT MENTIONED as a child of sacrifice by Abraham in both the Bible and the Koran. So what is the Muslim community’s opinion since no name is mentioned? It is divided so they blame the Bible for allegedly being corrupted. But, why isn’t it clear in the Koran since it is clear in the Bible that Isaac was the ‘only son’ of ABRAHAM  and SARAH and that Ishmael was disowned and dismissed also making Isaac the only son in his household and of sacrifice? Are Muslims trying to guess and distract this account away? Does it take the emotional whim of Islamic commentators to write the wrong of the Koran for leaving it out? THIS IS A MAJOR BLONDER! After providing conclusive evidence of Islamic scholars saying that it was indeed Isaac, what was the response?

Originally posted by islamispeace

It is well known that these verses deal with the birth of Ishmael (peace be upon him), as the [vast majority] of Quranic commentators have stated.

He say’s a vast majority. Well, faith minded people all over the world find it amazing that Muhammad or the Koran had not stated it, only the commentators who came after the messenger! Did the angel recite to them as well? This is his first blog and his first line defense to disprove the “Biblical Story’ of Isaac being the only son of Abraham by Sarah and the only son in Abraham’s household to be offered up.

Originally posted by islamispeace

From the internal evidence, it is clear that he was indeed a very young child, possibly even an infant. According to the Hadiths, this is exactly what Ishmael (peace be upon him) was at the time of this incident:

The Hadiths, why wasn’t the Koran clear on? So, another source outside has to be used because of the Koran manipulation of the Biblical account, not having any time frame or location as does the Bible. Right from the start how do we know Ishmael was already a teenager?

Gen 17:24, 25 Abraham was 99 years old when he had the flesh of his foreskin circumcised. And Ish′ma·el his son was 13 years old when he had the flesh of his foreskin circumcised.

What happened five years after that? Let’s do the math.

Gen 21:8, 9 Now the child grew and was weaned, and Abraham prepared a big feast on the day that Isaac was weaned.  But Sarah kept noticing that the son of Ha′gar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, was mocking Isaac

In providing the detail, Ishmael was nineteen yrs. old! The Koran conveniently left out these important details. But, why is a nineteen yr. old young man bullying his little brother? We can began to see exactly why Hagar and Ishmael was legally dismissed and disowned personally by Elohim, leaving Isaac as the “only son” left behind with his natural parents Abraham and Sarah.  

Does the Koran support Muslims allegations of the contradictions in the Bible of Abraham getting ready to offer up Isaac as a sacrifice? If you notice, it does not, why?

Because the Koran intentionally omitted these details to promote Islam and Muhammad as its messenger. Does the koran say Ishmael was the son that was going to be sacrificed? Of course not it changed the whole story around and left things out. Surely that would have given the koran’s account some sort of credibility, at least to start off with but it doesn’t. So, to distract its followers from knowing the truth, let’s distort the Genesis account by changing the names and say the Bible is corrupted. Why? Base on the Ahmed Deedat syndrome, here it is once again . . .

Originally posted by islamispeace

Clearly, both the Bible and Islamic sources describe Ishmael (peace be upon him) as a helpless infant when he was sent out with his mother. The only difference is that the Biblical story is chronologically flawed and self-contradictory.

The Bible as I have shown above shows Ishmael to be a teenager (Gen 17:24, 25) Why does the Koran need Islamic sources to prove that he was not a teenager, was it recited to Muhammad or to them? Is it because the Koran lacks sufficient logical evidence? Because of your lack of research this and your remaining blogs went downhill from there. How does he conclude this blog?

Originally posted by islamispeace

Therefore, the Biblical version suffers from serious contradictions and can only be the result of textual tampering.

Contradictions according to who, the Hadiths? All I can say is ignorance is bliss, especially since the Koran is a book for Muslims and Muhammad is its [messenger.] Yet it is silent on the most fundamental teachings of Abraham inheritance to a promised miracle son. But, it does draws attention to the way Islamic commentators defend their beliefs. They take a narcissistic approach, if it’s not spelled out in a way they think it should be spelled out or explained in the Koran or Hadith the Bible is wrong. Here’s another example . . .    

 

Originally posted by islamispeace

the verse in question does not say “take your son, your only son [with Sarah]””” .

And for this reason it is false? This is pretty much the same approach as Ahmed Deedat and other would be debaters and apologetics. As you can see, they have a very, very, very strong sense of personal preference on how verses in the Bible are supposed to be written since they disagree with it. How self-centered and self-indulgent is that approach to the Holy Scriptures? Yet, the Koran has failed and fallen short on the account of Abraham promises and blessings through Isaac, Jacob and eventually Jesus, the promised seed and messiah. Obviously, this would be the first and foremost mistake of anyone whose faith is based on a shaky foundation as the Koran and those who supposedly were used by Allah to establish it.

This brings us to the phrase that was used; “common sense.” Since Muslims grossly MIS-Understand and thus in turn MIS-Interpret the term ‘only son’ it is in their altered ego the scriptures are corrupted. Let us go into it further by discussing Isaac’s unique position and why he is singled out not only in  the Bible but believe it or not also in the Koran.    

In the scriptures a conversation was addressed to Abraham that a promised child would be born to Sarah through a miracle birth; let’s examine both the Bible and Koran to see who the promised son was; not sons of Abraham but the promised SON of Abraham.

Gen. 17:15, 16 Then God said to Abraham: “As for your wife Sar′ai, you must not call her Sar′ai, because Sarah will become her name.  I will bless her and also give you a [son] by her; I will bless her and she will become nations; kings of peoples will come from her.” Gen 18: 9-15

Compare Surah 11:69-73, 37:112-113, 51:24-30

Perhaps someone can tell me where Ishmael is singled out as a promised son and born through a miracle birth?

Isaac’s and Isaac’s descendants would inherit an inheritance that was given to Abraham; Ishmael would not receive any of the inheritance given to Abraham. Gen 13:14-18 15:18-21 28:13, 14!

Perhaps someone can tell me where in the Koran is Ishmael and his descendants primarily singled out and lined up for future blessings? How did Ishmael handle this rejection? The animosity Ishmael had toward Isaac was handed down to his descendants; even to the extent of hating the God of Abraham in Psalms 83:2, 5-6. Muhammad claims to be a descendant of Ishmael. If I were you I would read this!

For look! Your enemies are in an uproar; those who hate you act arrogantly, They have made an alliance against you, 6 The tents of E′dom and the Ish′ma·el·ites,

Furthermore, the blessings that were given to Isaac were because of the promise by Elohim to Abraham and Sarah. As I explained earlier, because of Ishmael’s bullying Isaac Ishmael and Hagar was force to leave, being legally dismissed and disowned from the family and legally dismissed from ALL of Abraham’s inheritance, thus the term ‘only son’ would also be applied here. In fact, when this statement was first uttered in Genesis 22:2, it was AFTER Ishmael was DISOWNED, BANNED and no longer legally part of the family. The Koran agrees with this fact as well because Ishmael’s only return was to bury his father. There is no record of Ishmael being buried in the cave of Machpelah, the place of burial for Abraham and Isaac, along with their wives.

What also made being the ‘only son’ a unique experience to just Isaac through Abraham and Sarah? He received the honor and blessings from ‘El Shaddai’! So, we ask again, what harm was done in the Koran by intentionally leaving out the name of the child of sacrifice in order to manipulate Islamic believers? A Distrust and MIS-quoting of ‘El Shaddai’ Holy words causing a division among his believers.

Since this was a blow to Islam and NOT Judaism or Christianity it left Muslim scholars guessing whether the child of sacrifice was Isaac or Ishmael and caused much dissension between the two groups up until now. Islamispeace agrees . . . .

Originally posted by islamispeace

if the Christian had actually done some honest research on the subject, he would have realized that many of the scholars mentioned above [also said] that Ishmael was the son of sacrifice.

SO THEY TO WERE UNDECIDED, confused. But, of course to save face and having an emotional attachment to their belief rather than the TRUTH it seems they said both! Now, that’s contradictory to say the least. But, that is the stand islamispeace has taken, it really doesn’t matter. Well, according to this scripture  it does, read Psalms 83:2, 5-6

Originally posted by islamispeace

The Christian keeps asking this question even though we never denied that Isaac was [Abraham’s only son] through Sarah. It is obvious that he was.

Instead, of promoting TRUTH once again the fence is being straddled because of an emotional attachment to Islam. What are the sentiments of other Islamic scholars that also said it was Isaac?

According to Abu Kurayb - Ibn Yaman - Isra'il - Jabir - Ibn Sabit: He was Isaac.

According to Kurayb - Ibn Yaman - Sufyan - Abu Sinan al-Shaybani - Ibn Abi al-Hudhayl: The victim was Isaac.

According to Abu Kurayb - Sufyan b. 'Uqbah - Hmaza al-Zayyat - Abu Ishaq - Abu Maysarah: Joseph told the king to his face, "You wish to eat with me when I, by God, am Joseph son of Jacob the prophet of God, son of Isaac the victim of God, son of Abraham the friend of God."

According to Musa b. Harun - 'Amr b. Hammad - Asbat - al-Suddi - Abu Malik and Abu Salih - Ibn 'Abbas and Murrah al-Hamdani - Ibn Mas'ud and some of the companions of the Prophet: Abraham was instructed in a dream to "carry out your promise that if God granted you a son by Sarah you would sacrifice him."

According to Ya'qub - Husahym - Zakariya' and Shu'bah - Abu Ishaq - Masruq: When God said, "The We ransomed him with a tremendous victim," that was Isaac.

The great Muslim commentator al-Baidawi also believed that the child of sacrifice was Isaac. In his comments on S. 12:46, al-Baidawi states:

As He perfected it formerly on thy fathers: by appointing them as messengers. Some say (that God perfected his blessing) on Abraham by taking him as a ‘friend’ (khalil) and by saving him from the fire (into which the unbelievers had cast him), and (he perfected it) on Isaac by delivering him from the sacrifice and by ransoming him with a great victim (for the sacrifice) ... (Helmut Gätje, The Qur'an and Its Exegesis [Oneworld Publications, Oxford 1996], p. 107; bold italic emphasis ours)

The nature of the Islamic traditions regarding the Sacrifice suggests that those locating the act in Syria and assuming Isaac to have been the intended victim WERE THE EARLIEST. The pre-Islamic association of Abraham with Mecca, however, naturally encouraged the growth of counter traditions positing the location of the Sacrifice in the sacred Islamic center. The fact that many traditions treating the first Abrahamic Pilgrimage exclude any mention of the Sacrifice lends credence to the view that the connection between the Abrahamic Sacrifice and the pre-Islamic pilgrimage sacrifice was a late (Islamic) development… (P. 149; capital and underline emphasis ours)

Further, the Bible's superiority is once again demonstrated by virtue of the fact that it even mentions the site where these events took place, Mt. Moriah, the future site of the Solomonic Temple (cf. Gen. 22:2; 2 Chron. 3:1); whereas with the Quran we are not given even the slightest hint as to where this sacrifice was to take place. This has also caused controversy and confusion amongst Muslim scholars as they desperately try to figure this problem out.

I guess common sense isn’t so common these days after all. Let me now stress what was told to Hagar regarding her son although he would become a nation of people

Genesis 16:12 He will be a wild donkey of a man. His hand will be against everyone, and everyone’s hand will be against him, and he will dwell opposite all his brothers.” (I’ll get into that later)

What was told Sarah? Genesis 17:16 I will bless her and also give you a son by her; I will bless her and she will become nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”

I stated in the outset, they need Ishmael to be the child of sacrifice instead of Isaac. Case and point . . .

Originally posted by islamispeace

The Christian is making a leap of faith by claiming that God actually meant “take your only son through Sarah”

We ALL saw the verses in the scriptures and what we both said about ‘only son’ but ultimately it’s what Elohim said and did in behalf of Isaac, nothing to do with faith. That in turn left Muslims still guessing and hoping that it was an error in the scriptures. This guessing has also caused them to believe that Elohim is a tribal God when in fact he’s not.  

Originally posted by islamispeace

The reason is that we do not believe in a racial or tribal god, what the Bible refers to as the “God of Israel”. God is not just the“God of Israel” but the God of All.  

It was through Abraham that Elohim said that ALL nations on the earth would be blessed through the promised seed. However, the promise was first made to Abraham, but ALL will benefit. We are ALL children of Abraham. So you’re incorrect again by saying ‘He’s just the God of Israel exclusively, the scriptures shows he is not.

Gen 12: 1-3 And Jehovah said to A′bram: “Go out from your land and away from your relatives and from the house of your father to the land that I will show you.  I will make you a great nation, and I will bless you, and I will make your name great, and you will become a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who calls down evil on you, and all the families of the ground will certainly be blessed by means of you.

Why to Abraham? It’s what we have been discussing all along, because Abraham did not withhold his son. Gen 22:15-18

Back to the subject at hand; in an effort to impress himself he brings attention to a quote in the Akedah-the binding of Isaac. Why did he do that, it only shows beyond the shadow of doubt that Abraham’s role was a fore gleam of what would happen centuries later, who he was about to sacrifice, and what it portrayed in the Gospel, read it for yourself. Here is a taste “ we understand the Akedah as a foreshadowing of the ultimate sacrifice…God’s son to make salvation to all who believe John 3:16 - “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. Need I say more, I believe! I BELIEVE!!!! Do you? As you can see he is unable to use the Koran to add credibility to his argument because the Koran keeps everyone guessing which is what the objective is. No wonder the Muslim community is in the dark, undecided and divided on this matter.   

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Prayers/Daily_Prayers/Akedah/akedah.html

Originally posted by islamispeace

… 4Q225, was not from a non-canonical book. It was a different version of the Genesis story of Ishmael and Isaac. The last time we checked, Genesis was a canonical book!

Genesis, YES, you’re so called reliable sources like Aqedah, Jubilees and Pseudojubiless, definitely NOT! Re-check your history. These books are almost last on the food chain.

Originally posted by islamispeace

…the Book of Jubilees is considered to be scripture by the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and by Ethiopian Jews (Beta Israel)

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church and by Ethiopian Jews or the Church of Rome do NOT determine what is canonical and what is not. Jubilees which is called a lesser genesis is a RE-WRITING of Genesis and Exodus, you have to do better than that to discredit the account of Abraham. You are really, really looking pretty desperate now. The Book of Jubilees along with your other reliable sources as you know FAILED the standards of the “Canon of the Scriptures” There goes your Pseudepigrapha writings up in smoke. But, it does speak negatively about your in-depth research and how thorough you are in disproving your imagined contradictions and discrepancies.

Unlike the Koran, many of the Bible writers confirm the authenticity of Genesis within its pages, even centuries later. The best example of this is that of ‘El Shaddai’ himself and Jesus Christ.

Genesis 26: 24 That night YHWH appeared to him (Isaac) and said: “I am the God of your father Abraham. Do not be afraid, for I am with you, and I will bless you and multiply your offspring on account of Abraham my servant.”

Luke 24:44 He (Jesus) then said to them: “These are my words that I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all the things written about me in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms must be fulfilled.”

Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac—the man who had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up his only-begotten son      

As you can see, there is no need to use outside material to confirm or support the word of YHWH, archeology and secular history does a good job in doing that on its own. But when it comes to the Koran not only does the account of Abraham lacks clarity and conviction, the references that Islam uses to support its argument against the Bible were never included in the Jewish canon of inspired Scriptures and do not form part of it today
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 08 March 2014 at 11:40pm
Unfulfilled prophecy:
(a) "And I will give unto thee (O Abraham), the land wherein thou
art a stranger, ALL THE LAND OF CANAAN (Palestine),
for an ever-lasting possession; and I will be their God."
GENESIS 17:8. Also GENESIS 13:15 and EXODUS 32:13.
Poor Abraham (pbuh) did not receive a single square foot of land
FREE!
(b) "And he (God Almighty) gave him (Abraham) NO inheritance in
it, NO, NOT SO MUCH TO SET HIS FOOT UPON; but he
(God) promised that he would give it to him for a possession . .
." ACTS 7:5
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