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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 22 February 2014 at 11:09am
Any response from 1914?  You haven't visited since 2/17.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote 1914 Replybullet Posted: 23 February 2014 at 8:58pm

Here is a perfect example of the Ahmed Deedat (A Muslim Debater) syndrome. That is, to discredit the Bible if it is not in harmony with the Koran and to take things out of context.  The subject at hand is whether the term “only son” was appropriately used when God used it in reference to Isaac, the only son of Abraham and Sarah. A term in which Muslims vehemently need to deny tooth and nail and I’ll explain why later. First let me say, Christians believe whole heartedly that the Bible is the inspired word of God and that it has been preserved by God over the centuries. Muslims feel that the Koran was transmitted to Muhammad through an angel, much later identified as Gabriel and that it too has been preserved by Allah.

 

However, to believe Muhammad, one would need to accept Ishmael. Why? Because Muslims claim that Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael and that God’s promise to Ishmael was that he would become a nation. But, little do they know that’s all he would become, a nation of people, nothing more, nothing less. Not a nation of Kings and certainly not of prophets. So for a Muslim, Ishmael is the key to Abraham which the connection to Muhammad is allegedly made, although Muhammad himself never claimed to be a descendant of Ishmael. But, for argument sake let’s say that he was, Ishmael and other descendants of Abraham would never be an heir to the throne of David, why? Because the promise of a Kingdom was made only to Isaac and his line of descendants which the Messiah Jesus Christ would come through. So you can see why it’s imperative that Muslims claim Ishmael as the “only child” of sacrifice and not Isaac. Muslims thus say it was Ishmael that was about to be offered up as a sacrifice and not Isaac, another account that is taken out of context by the Deedat syndrome in order to fit the Koran’s account of Abraham and Hagar rather than Abraham and Sarah. How did Isaac come to be Abraham’s and Sarah ‘only son?’ I’m getting to it but you must read it in its full context!  

 

Genesis 21:10 reads So she said to Abraham: “Drive out this slave girl and her son, for the son of this slave girl is not going to be an heir along with my son, with Isaac!”

Right from the start Ishmael displayed bad traits and had to be driven away. Was her request backed up by the God of Abraham? Yes!

Genesis 21:12 Then God said to Abraham: “Do not be displeased by what Sarah is saying to you about the boy and about your slave girl. Listen to her, for what will be called your offspring/seed will be through Isaac. So the Bible’s view is that Abraham’s seed for blessing all mankind would come through Isaac, not Ishmael.

 

 

But why did God favor Sarah and not Hagar?

Genesis 17:19 To this God said: “Sarah your wife is indeed bearing you a son, and you must call his name Isaac. And I will establish my covenant with him for a covenant to time indefinite to his seed after him. God himself laid down the LAW for an everlasting covenant with Sarah’s son Isaac! What about Ishmael? As promised he would still be fruitful and become a nation of people.

Genesis 17:20 But as regards Ish′ma·el I have heard you. Look! I will bless him and will make him fruitful and will multiply him very, very much.

But again, God is laying down the LAW for Israel and not for Islam by repeating it.

Genesis 17:21 However, my covenant I shall establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this appointed time next year.

Although this fact is plain and simple and repeated by Abraham’s God over and over again, it cannot be true according to Muslims, why? Because the covenant is with Isaac and not with Ishmael, The Ahmed Deedat syndrome in effect.

 

Why in Genesis 22:2 did God say “Take, please, your son, your only son?” Because, here, Isaac was the only son of Sarah and the only son remaining in Abraham’s household at the time that God spoke these words. Qur’an translator Ali admits that “Muslim tradition . . . is not unanimous on this point. Even Some Moslem writers agree with the Biblical account that Isaac was the prospective sacrifice. The Qur’an itself highlights another aspect of Jesus’ activity that further helps us to identify him as the promised seed through whom blessings would come to mankind. At Sura 5:113 we read: “Then will God say: ‘O Jesus the son of Mary! . . . thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My [God’s] leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. . . . thou didst show them [the Israelites] the Clear Signs.’”

 

No wonder the Koran never specifies the boy by name in Sura 37:101, 102, it would have caused more of a division within Islam. It would have been a perfect opportunity to mention Ishmael by name in this account but it doesn’t. It is obvious that Muslims so badly need Ishmael and his offspring to claim “heir” to the everlasting covenant that was promised to Isaac and his offspring. This is key in order for Muslims to claim Muhammad as an descendant/messenger/prophet of Ishmael although Muhammad himself never made the claim. But, as you can see it was after Ishmael and Hagar was dismissed from the scene all together the scriptures appropriately used the term ‘only son’ not before they were dismissed as islamispeace link alleges. It also must be emphasized that the Bible mentions Isaac by name several times but the Koran leaves out Ishmael name all together in regards to which son Abraham was going to sacrifice.

 

To sum this up, the Koran or Muhammad never, ever mentions Ishmael as the [child] of sacrifice. And the Koran and Muhammad never, ever mention himself as a descendant of Ishmael. Why would the Koran and Muhammad leave these very important items out, which would confirm and validate Islam’s messenger Muhammad? Simply, because he was not an heir to an everlasting covenant, only Isaac, the ‘only’ son of Abraham and Sarah.

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Quote NABA Replybullet Posted: 25 February 2014 at 8:16am
Assalamalecum 1914 y don't u quote ch 2 v 136 and ch 3 v 84, Allah says say "o believers believe in whatever we have given to Abraham and Ischmael and Isaac and jacob and to moses and aron and to all prophets and never make divisions among them"y dont u quote ch 37 v 100 in which prophey Ibrahim (pbuh) asks for a son to Allah then in the next verses story of sacrifice continues.that son was Ischmael (pbuh)
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 25 February 2014 at 8:33pm
Originally posted by 1914

Here is a perfect example of the Ahmed Deedat (A Muslim Debater) syndrome. That is, to discredit the Bible if it is not in harmony with the Koran and to take things out of context.  The subject at hand is whether the term “only son” was appropriately used when God used it in reference to Isaac, the only son of Abraham and Sarah. A term in which Muslims vehemently need to deny tooth and nail and I’ll explain why later. First let me say, Christians believe whole heartedly that the Bible is the inspired word of God and that it has been preserved by God over the centuries. Muslims feel that the Koran was transmitted to Muhammad through an angel, much later identified as Gabriel and that it too has been preserved by Allah.

 

However, to believe Muhammad, one would need to accept Ishmael. Why? Because Muslims claim that Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael and that God’s promise to Ishmael was that he would become a nation. But, little do they know that’s all he would become, a nation of people, nothing more, nothing less. Not a nation of Kings and certainly not of prophets. So for a Muslim, Ishmael is the key to Abraham which the connection to Muhammad is allegedly made, although Muhammad himself never claimed to be a descendant of Ishmael. But, for argument sake let’s say that he was, Ishmael and other descendants of Abraham would never be an heir to the throne of David, why? Because the promise of a Kingdom was made only to Isaac and his line of descendants which the Messiah Jesus Christ would come through. So you can see why it’s imperative that Muslims claim Ishmael as the “only child” of sacrifice and not Isaac. Muslims thus say it was Ishmael that was about to be offered up as a sacrifice and not Isaac, another account that is taken out of context by the Deedat syndrome in order to fit the Koran’s account of Abraham and Hagar rather than Abraham and Sarah. How did Isaac come to be Abraham’s and Sarah ‘only son?’ I’m getting to it but you must read it in its full context!  

 

Genesis 21:10 reads So she said to Abraham: “Drive out this slave girl and her son, for the son of this slave girl is not going to be an heir along with my son, with Isaac!”

Right from the start Ishmael displayed bad traits and had to be driven away. Was her request backed up by the God of Abraham? Yes!

Genesis 21:12 Then God said to Abraham: “Do not be displeased by what Sarah is saying to you about the boy and about your slave girl. Listen to her, for what will be called your offspring/seed will be through Isaac. So the Bible’s view is that Abraham’s seed for blessing all mankind would come through Isaac, not Ishmael.

 

 

But why did God favor Sarah and not Hagar?

Genesis 17:19 To this God said: “Sarah your wife is indeed bearing you a son, and you must call his name Isaac. And I will establish my covenant with him for a covenant to time indefinite to his seed after him. God himself laid down the LAW for an everlasting covenant with Sarah’s son Isaac! What about Ishmael? As promised he would still be fruitful and become a nation of people.

Genesis 17:20 But as regards Ish′ma·el I have heard you. Look! I will bless him and will make him fruitful and will multiply him very, very much.

But again, God is laying down the LAW for Israel and not for Islam by repeating it.

Genesis 17:21 However, my covenant I shall establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this appointed time next year.

Although this fact is plain and simple and repeated by Abraham’s God over and over again, it cannot be true according to Muslims, why? Because the covenant is with Isaac and not with Ishmael, The Ahmed Deedat syndrome in effect.

 

Why in Genesis 22:2 did God say “Take, please, your son, your only son?” Because, here, Isaac was the only son of Sarah and the only son remaining in Abraham’s household at the time that God spoke these words. Qur’an translator Ali admits that “Muslim tradition . . . is not unanimous on this point. Even Some Moslem writers agree with the Biblical account that Isaac was the prospective sacrifice. The Qur’an itself highlights another aspect of Jesus’ activity that further helps us to identify him as the promised seed through whom blessings would come to mankind. At Sura 5:113 we read: “Then will God say: ‘O Jesus the son of Mary! . . . thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My [God’s] leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. . . . thou didst show them [the Israelites] the Clear Signs.’”

 

No wonder the Koran never specifies the boy by name in Sura 37:101, 102, it would have caused more of a division within Islam. It would have been a perfect opportunity to mention Ishmael by name in this account but it doesn’t. It is obvious that Muslims so badly need Ishmael and his offspring to claim “heir” to the everlasting covenant that was promised to Isaac and his offspring. This is key in order for Muslims to claim Muhammad as an descendant/messenger/prophet of Ishmael although Muhammad himself never made the claim. But, as you can see it was after Ishmael and Hagar was dismissed from the scene all together the scriptures appropriately used the term ‘only son’ not before they were dismissed as islamispeace link alleges. It also must be emphasized that the Bible mentions Isaac by name several times but the Koran leaves out Ishmael name all together in regards to which son Abraham was going to sacrifice.

 

To sum this up, the Koran or Muhammad never, ever mentions Ishmael as the [child] of sacrifice. And the Koran and Muhammad never, ever mention himself as a descendant of Ishmael. Why would the Koran and Muhammad leave these very important items out, which would confirm and validate Islam’s messenger Muhammad? Simply, because he was not an heir to an everlasting covenant, only Isaac, the ‘only’ son of Abraham and Sarah.



My response:

http://quranandbible.blogspot.com/2014/02/response-to-christian-about-biblical_25.html
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 26 February 2014 at 10:31pm
Prophet Ismail (A.S)
Oct 6th, 2013 by Ahmed.
Prophet Ismail (a.s) was the son of Ibrahim (a.s) and Hajar. One day Ibrahim (a.s) took his baby son and wife (Hajar) to the site where Ka’ba can be found today. He gave them some dates and water and started to leave. As Ibrahim (a.s) walked away, Hajar followed and asked why they were being left in this empty place. She understood from his silence that Allah had commanded him to do this. Finally, she asked if Allah had ordered him to do this and he replied that it was so. Upon hearing this, she accepted Allah’s will and returned to the place where Ibrahim (a.s) had left her.

As soon as Ibrahim (a.s) was out of sight, he turned and prayed to Allah to protect and provide for his family which he had left out in the wilderness:
رَّبَّنَآ إِنَّيۤ أَسْكَنتُ مِن ذُرِّيَّتِي بِوَادٍ غَيْرِ ذِي زَرْعٍ عِندَ بَيْتِكَ ٱلْمُحَرَّمِ رَبَّنَا لِيُقِيمُواْ ٱلصَّلاَةَ فَٱجْعَلْ أَفْئِدَةً مِّنَ ٱلنَّاسِ تَهْوِيۤ إِلَيْهِمْ وَٱرْزُقْهُمْ مِّنَ ٱلثَّمَرَاتِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَشْكُرُونَ
“O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; In order, O our Lord that they may establish regular prayer; So fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits; So that they may give thanks.” (al-Qur’an 14:37)

Ismail (a.s) and his mother lived for some time on the water and dates Ibrahim (a.s) left them, but finally the water ran out, and Ismail’s (a.s) mother could no longer produce enough milk to feed Ismail (a.s). The mother could not bear to see her child suffering, so she ran to the top of nearby Mount Safa to see if she could find someone to help her. When she could see no one, she ran down the mountain and across the valley to Mount Marwa. She ran from one mountain to the other seven times, looking for water or help. After the seventh time she heard a voice and she called out to it for help. When she looked she saw an angel digging the earth with his heel until water flowed forth. That place was the site of Zam-zam. She carefully made a barrier around the place where the water was flowing, and filled her waterbag with her hands. Then she was able to drink water and feed her baby. The angel also told her not to be afraid, that she and her son would be provided for.

Ismail (a.s) and his mother continued to live at this place all by themselves for some time. One day some people of the Jurhum tribe were passing through the valley. They didn’t intend to stop, because they knew that there had never been any water in that valley. But they saw a kind of bird which was known to frequent wet spots, so they followed it to the spring of Zam-zam. There they found Ismail’s (a.s) mother sitting by the water.

Ismail’s mother agreed they could settle there for a while, as long as they did not claim possession to the water. Some of the people of the tribe settled by the water permanently and Ismail grew up amongst them.
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 01 March 2014 at 10:57am
Originally posted by iec786

Prophet Ismail (A.S)
Oct 6th, 2013 by Ahmed.
Prophet Ismail (a.s) was the son of Ibrahim (a.s) and Hajar. One day Ibrahim (a.s) took his baby son and wife (Hajar) to the site where Ka’ba can be found today. He gave them some dates and water and started to leave. As Ibrahim (a.s) walked away, Hajar followed and asked why they were being left in this empty place. She understood from his silence that Allah had commanded him to do this. Finally, she asked if Allah had ordered him to do this and he replied that it was so. Upon hearing this, she accepted Allah’s will and returned to the place where Ibrahim (a.s) had left her.

As soon as Ibrahim (a.s) was out of sight, he turned and prayed to Allah to protect and provide for his family which he had left out in the wilderness:
رَّبَّنَآ إِنَّيۤ أَسْكَنتُ مِن ذُرِّيَّتِي بِوَادٍ غَيْرِ ذِي زَرْعٍ عِندَ بَيْتِكَ ٱلْمُحَرَّمِ رَبَّنَا لِيُقِيمُواْ ٱلصَّلاَةَ فَٱجْعَلْ أَفْئِدَةً مِّنَ ٱلنَّاسِ تَهْوِيۤ إِلَيْهِمْ وَٱرْزُقْهُمْ مِّنَ ٱلثَّمَرَاتِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَشْكُرُونَ
“O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; In order, O our Lord that they may establish regular prayer; So fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits; So that they may give thanks.” (al-Qur’an 14:37)

Ismail (a.s) and his mother lived for some time on the water and dates Ibrahim (a.s) left them, but finally the water ran out, and Ismail’s (a.s) mother could no longer produce enough milk to feed Ismail (a.s). The mother could not bear to see her child suffering, so she ran to the top of nearby Mount Safa to see if she could find someone to help her. When she could see no one, she ran down the mountain and across the valley to Mount Marwa. She ran from one mountain to the other seven times, looking for water or help. After the seventh time she heard a voice and she called out to it for help. When she looked she saw an angel digging the earth with his heel until water flowed forth. That place was the site of Zam-zam. She carefully made a barrier around the place where the water was flowing, and filled her waterbag with her hands. Then she was able to drink water and feed her baby. The angel also told her not to be afraid, that she and her son would be provided for.

Ismail (a.s) and his mother continued to live at this place all by themselves for some time. One day some people of the Jurhum tribe were passing through the valley. They didn’t intend to stop, because they knew that there had never been any water in that valley. But they saw a kind of bird which was known to frequent wet spots, so they followed it to the spring of Zam-zam. There they found Ismail’s (a.s) mother sitting by the water.

Ismail’s mother agreed they could settle there for a while, as long as they did not claim possession to the water. Some of the people of the tribe settled by the water permanently and Ismail grew up amongst them.


Wonderful story! Clap
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote solitair Replybullet Posted: 04 March 2014 at 3:12am
Originally posted by neil

For years and years, I have heard claims from Islam that the Bible is corrupted.

NOT ONCE have I seen one shred of evidence to persuade me of this claim.

Who can dispel my view that corruption claims are merely Islam's way of trying to prove, conveniently for themselves, that the Quran harmonizes with the Bible when it obviously doesn't.


If you have read the Qur'an and the Bible, you realize that it is the same story. The main differences are that the Bible stops after Jesus. The Qur'an contains the same story as the Bible, but is has the next chapter as well.

One of many interesting theorys is that Paul the Apostle (original name Saul of Tarsus) that started up many churches after the death of Jesus, is the one starting this corruption of the Bible. He lived 500 years before the Qur'an was written.

Now in year 570, a man by the name Muhammed ign Adb Allah, was born. He continued where the Bible ended, and the interesting part is that everything from this story that you find in the bible was written down in Arabic  - where the name of the book is the Holy Qur'an. It has everything, except all the strange contradictions you find in the Bible.

This is in fact a very easy question. You can just start at the beginning of the Bible, and put the Qur'an next to it, and open it also in the beginning. Then you start to compare.

In the beginning - there was no light... and so on.

When the story comes to Adam and Eve in paradise, you will notice important diferences in the two books when it comes to how Adam and Eve fell in to sin or what ever you want to call it.

Bible blames it on the woman, Qur'an does not. Bible said a snake (now we all know woman are afraid of snakes) came to the woman with seduction ?? what ?? If anything the woman would have ran away screaming ...

My point ? And if i may add - im not a muslim - the Qur'an shows you a version that does not have conflicting logic. But the Bible has conflicting logic all the way through.

Now don't just talk about it - if you really want to know, than do what i said - and you will see for yourself.

The reason for these big differences are that Qur'an today is still in its original form, in its original language - a language that still exist in wide use.

The bible have been translated thousands of times, where there is no original versions at all. Just bits and peaces here and there, that nobody really can verify.

You can not find more than one version of the Qur'an, but you sure can find many versions of the Bible.

Example: I tell you today, you are going to come with me to paradise.

This is what Jehova Withneses say Jesus said to the robber hanging next to him on the cross.

Catholic Churce: I tell you, today you are going to come with me to paradise.

So one is saying that the robber is coming with Jesus TODAY, and the the other is telling it TODAY that one day he is comming to paradise. So when is this robber going to paradise ? Today  or in a thousand years ? Bible have conflicting answers depending on the version you read.

Big differences, but  you don't find these if you study the Qur'an, only the bible have these contradictions all over the place...

I can go on and show you thousands of examples where the bible is contradicting itself, but i think that if you really want to know, the best thing is to do what i say. Compare the Qur'an and the Bible, and you will see the complete story. 

This Muslims believe that God had to use one more prophet, to get the Book written properly. And we see today that the bible can not did not really work out, as it can not really be a book from God at all by my standard. For that is is just to self contradicting.

If you want to know what the bible was meant to say, you have to peace it back together. The only way to do that is to use the Qur'an for a guideline, and you will find where the Bible is messed up from all the years of translation and manipulation.


Best of luck -



Edited by solitair - 04 March 2014 at 3:18am
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 05 March 2014 at 1:22pm
Originally posted by solitair


If you have read the Qur'an and the Bible, you realize that it is the same story. The main differences are that the Bible stops after Jesus. The Qur'an contains the same story as the Bible, but is has the next chapter as well.

 the name of the book is the Holy Qur'an. It has everything,

Greetings solitair,

Regarding these two things...
The qur'an is not complete.  It includes none of the teachings of Yshwe(known as Jesus).  It claims to respect Yshwe as a prophet yet includes none of His teachings. 
It refers to His teachings, the Injeel, saying that they will be found with the people of the Book, but muslims reject this, saying that 'the Book' was corrupted, but if the Book had been corrupted surely God would have had Muhammad correct it in order that the muslims would have the teachings of Yshwe.

If you read the qur'an, you see clearly that it is not the same story.  There are similarities, but there are glaring differences.  The qur'an contains some of the Truth, but not all.

Salaam and blessings,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 05 March 2014 at 1:30pm
Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
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