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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 29 April 2005 at 7:25pm

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Brother Ibn Hanbal, Assalamulaiakum wa rahmatullah wa barkatuhu,

Most of the ppl on the boards have decided not to engage in a dialogue with this person. You  r not too far from being called a zionist or something to that effect.

All over the boards he has been disrespecting muslims and nonmuslims alike. And from the horse's mouth, this loud mouth was a moderator on a wahabi website .... not a big surprise.

Thus as an advise save your breath, and move on to some useful conversation, insha allah.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Rehmat
 
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Quote Rehmat Replybullet Posted: 29 April 2005 at 8:45pm
But this 'person's' post exposing who is Wahabi or who is Zionist has been deleted by this 'gal'
Know your enemy!
No time to waste. Act now!
Tomorrow it will be too late
What You Don’t Know Can Kill You

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Ibn Hanbal
 
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Quote Ibn Hanbal Replybullet Posted: 30 April 2005 at 2:10pm
wa alaykum as salam wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu,

Jazakum Allah khair for the advice, sr.Nausheen.
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 05 May 2005 at 3:19pm
Originally posted by Rehmat

Hey don't expect every Muslim to act like a Wahabi - Against grave worshipping - but love America worshing!

Worshipping anything other than Allah is not understood under the context of any Islamic belief what to say for only "Wahabis". Isn't it? Instead of denoucing the action (the least one can do), I didn't expect this kind of reply from you atleast. I thought you are quite knowldgeable guy other than little ..........; but I can bear that as long as you remain focused with right kind of approach. Cheers! 

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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 10 May 2005 at 9:02am

I have not read all 1000+ postings, however, I would like to particpate any. I hope this was not already said.

I am an American re-vert to Islam (originally a Christian until the age of 21). I say this to establish that I have not been indoctrinated into any particular Islamic school of thought, and I beleive that Allah (S.W.A.) would not impose on us anything that did not make sense. This is the main reason for leaving the faith of my birth and the vast majority of my family members.

I have done quite a bit of research regarding the Sunni-Shia issue, and I am firmly convinced that the Shia are correct. When I say correct, let me explain (in part) what I mean. It is clear to me that;

1.) The Prophet Muhammad (A.S.) nominated Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib (A.S.) as his successor at least 3 times during his life in a clear an unmistakeable fashion. There are numerous sources in both Sunni and (of course) Shia books. I am amazed that my Sunni brothers and sisters consistently deny this when it is so clear, obvious and rational.

2.) The Sunni arguments against the Shia seem to revolve around the fact that the Shia are insulting to the companions of the Holy Messenger and some of his wives (such as Aisha). Please read your own books and you will find that some of the companions were good, and some of them were evil. Muawiya is considered a companion of the Prophet, and yet he attacked with military force the (according to Sunni's) fourth of the rightly guided caliphs on numerous occassions. Aisha also attacked Imam Ali (A.S.) in battle in the battle of the Camel (which is recorded in all Sunni books) along with Talah and Zubair (also companions). Being in open rebellion against the caliphate is a clear sin. Is this not the Sunni veiwpoint?

There are many other things I could say in this vein, however, I wish to keep it short and wait for a respons.  

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Ayubi1187
 
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Quote Ayubi1187 Replybullet Posted: 10 May 2005 at 11:57am

Originally posted by Ali Zaki

I have done quite a bit of research regarding the Sunni-Shia issue, and I am firmly convinced that the Shia are correct. When I say correct, let me explain (in part) what I mean. It is clear to me that;

1.) The Prophet Muhammad (A.S.) nominated Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib (A.S.) as his successor at least 3 times during his life in a clear an unmistakeable fashion. There are numerous sources in both Sunni and (of course) Shia books. I am amazed that my Sunni brothers and sisters consistently deny this when it is so clear, obvious and rational.

Can you please present where the Prophet(saw) in clear and unmistakable terms have appointed Ali(ra) as next caliph, i will be looking forward to read your evidence. I hope you will not disappoint as with what you have called clear and unmistakable evidence that our Prophet(saw)(saw) appointing Ali(ra).

2.) The Sunni arguments against the Shia seem to revolve around the fact that the Shia are insulting to the companions of the Holy Messenger and some of his wives (such as Aisha).

 Thats incorrect, we have allot of issues with shia, and their beliefs about the companions and the prophets family is only one of this issues. offcurse we will have big problem with any one who believes that almost all companions of the prophet became renegades after departure of our beloved prophet (saw).

Please read your own books and you will find that some of the companions were good, and some of them were evil. Muawiya is considered a companion of the Prophet, and yet he attacked with military force the (according to Sunni's) fourth of the rightly guided caliphs on numerous occassions. Aisha also attacked Imam Ali (A.S.) in battle in the battle of the Camel (which is recorded in all Sunni books) along with Talah and Zubair (also companions). Being in open rebellion against the caliphate is a clear sin. Is this not the Sunni veiwpoint?

The problem with shia is you see things in black and white. Why not just read what lead to this conflict instead of simplifying the entire conflict. I will help you little it all started with Uthman ibn affans(ra) death and hes killers. 

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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 10 May 2005 at 12:33pm

" Can you please present where the Prophet(saw) in clear and unmistakable terms have appointed Ali(ra) as next caliph"

You have asked my all time favorite question! Thank you!

I just wrote this on a different posting, but I will repeat it here.

Regarding the first point.

The First Time

" When the verse: "And warn thy nearest relations (26:214), was revealed, the Prophet ordered 'Ali to prepare food and invite the sons of 'Abdu'l-Muttalib so that he could convey to them the words of Allah. After the feast, the Prophet intended to talk to them, but Abu Lahab interfered by saying:"Verily, your comrade has entranced you". Upon hearing this statement all of them dispersed.

The next day, the Messenger of Allah again called them for a feast. After they had finished with their food, the Prophet addressed them: "O sons of 'Abdul'l-Muttalib, I have brought for you the good of this world and the next, and I have been appointed by the Lord to call you unto Him. Therefore, who amongst you will administer this cause for me and be my brother, my successor and my caliph?" No one responded to the Prophet' s call except 'Ali who was the youngest of the congregation. The Prophet then patted 'Ali's neck and said: "O my people! This 'A1i is my brother, my successor and my caliph amongst you. Listen to him and obey him.'' [16] "

The Second Time

" Abu Dharr al-Ghifari says that one day he was praying with the Prophet when a beggar came to the Prophet's mosque. No one responded to his pleas. The beggar raised his hands towards heavens and said, "Allah! be a witness that I came to Thy Prophet's mosque and no one gave me anything". 'Ali (as) was bowing in ruku' at that time. He pointed his little finger, on which was a ring, towards the beggar who came forward and took away the ring. This incident occurred in the Prophet's presence who raised his face towards heaven and prayed: "O Lord! my brother Musa had begged of Thee to open his breast and to make his work easy for him, to loose the knot of his tongue so that people might understand him, and to appoint from among his relations his brother, as his vizier, and to strengthen his back with Harun and to make Harun his partner in his work. O Allah! Thou said to Musa, 'We will strengthen thy arm with thy brother. No one will now have an access to either of you!' O Allah! I am Muhammad and Thou hast given me distinction. Open my breast for me, make my work easy for me, and from my family appoint my brother 'Ali as my vizier. Strengthen my back with him". The Prophet had not yet finished his prayers when Jibril brought the above quoted verse. [17] "

The Third Time

Ghadir Khumm lies in Juhfa between Mecca and Medina. When the Prophet was on his way home, after performing his last pilgrimage, Jibril brought him this urgent command of Allah:

O Apostle! deliver what has been sent down to you from your Lord; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message (at all); and Allah will protect you from the people . . . (5 :67)

The Prophet stopped at once and ordered that all people who had gone ahead should be called back, and he waited for those who were following. When all the caravan had gathered, a pulpit was set up by piling up camel saddles; the acacia thorns were swept away. The Prophet ascended the pulpit and delivered a long sermon. The day was very hot; people had to stretch their cloaks under their feet and over their heads. The Prophet addressed them as follows: O you people! Know it well that Jibril came down to me several times bringing me orders from the Lord, the Merciful, that I should halt at this place and inform every man, white and black, that 'Ali, the son of Abu Talib, is my brother and my wasiyy (successor) and my caliph, and the Imam after me. His position to me is like that of Harun to Musa, except that there is to be no prophet after me, and he is your master next to Allah and His Prophet. "

ALSO:

The Messenger of Allah said to Ali: "Your position to me is like the
     position of Aaron (Haroon) to Moses, except that there shall be no
     Prophet after me"
                                    |     : |. .         .      .. .  |
        _w q_o    . _o    .  q   |_8   4_| _,_o_,     _,_o  ,__,_, |
     (_S   /     (_)     (_) / /          /    .   (_S

                                                   .   | |   .  |  | ||
                                        ]_e_,    _,_,  |_|  4_, |  |_||
                                    (_S    .  (_S.
Sunni References:
(1) Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, Traditions 5.56, 5.700
(2) Sahih Muslim, Arabic, v4, pp 1870-71
(3) Sunan Ibn Majah, p12
(4) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, p174
(5) al-Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, pp 15-16
(6) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, p309

See: http://al-islam.org/imamate/

Go to the above website for the complete list of sources.

SEE ALSO

http://www.al-islam.org/ask/ (written by a former Sunni scholar)

OR, if you have a little time, this will certainly be sufficient

http://al-islam.org/murajaat/index.htm

If, by " it all started with Uthman ibn affans(ra) death and hes killers." you are implying that Imam Ali(A.S.) had something to do with the assasination of Uthman (as Muawiya ibn abu Suffian did)  then please present your evidence for this.

In his famous collection of speechs, "Nagul Balagha", Imam Ali says in sermon 22 about those who accussed him of participating or sactioning the killing of Uthman

" Beware! Satan has certainly started instigating his forces and has collected his army in order that oppression may reach its extreme ends and wrong may come back to its position. By Allah they have not put a correct blame on me, nor have they done justice between me and themselves.

They are demanding of me a right which they have abandoned, and a blood that they have themselves shed.[1] If I were a partner with them in it then they too have their share of it. But if they did it without me they alone have to face the consequences. Their biggest argument (against me) is (really) against themselves. They are suckling from a mother who is already dry, and bringing into life innovation that is already dead. How disappointing is this challenger (to battle)? Who is this challenger and for what is he being responded to? I am happy that the reasoning of Allah has been exhausted before them and He knows (all) about them."

In fact there was not a shred of evidence ever presented against the Imam, although these lies and innuendo's were used to justify the actions of those whose true goal was the destruction of Islam and returning to the days of ignorance.

Even if you insist that Imam Ali(A.S.) was not nominated as the successor, did he not at least have the right to participate in the selection of the prophets successor? Why did the companions not wait until the washing of the prophets body to nominate his successor? If the issue was that important that it could not wait, would the Prophet of Allah (S.W.A.) forget to address this issue?

Salam

 

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 11 May 2005 at 8:01am

While waiting for the response from brother/sister Ayubi1187

I would like to add a few things to my previous reply. For the sources refereces for the first two instances of the decleration of Imam Ali (A.S.) as the prophets successor, please click on the linked references ([16], [17]). When you look them up, your will find these hadith transmitted from multiple sources, including non-Muslim scholars of history (as well as 'sahih' Sunni lines of transmission)

For the third instance (Ghadir Khumm), I would like to provide a complete listing of sources. The reason for this is that I have read in Sunni books who respond to this hadith by criticizing the chain of narrators. For this reason, I have burdened this form (I apologize) with a more extensive bibliographical demonstration.

Asnad of Hadith of Ghadir:

a. al-Hafiz Abu 'Isa at-Tirmidhi (d.279 A.H.) has said in his Sahih (one of the as-Sihah as-Sittah) that "This is a good (hasan) and correct (sahih) hadith.''[24]

b. al-Hafiz Abu Ja'far at-Tahawi (d. 321 A.H.) has said in his Mushkil u'l-athar that "This hadith is sahih according to the chains of narrators (asnad) and no one has said anything contrary to its narTators." [25]

c. Abu 'Abdillah al-Hakim an-Naysaburi (d. 405 A.H.) has narrated this hadith from several chains in his al-Mustadrak and has said that this hadith is sahih[26]

d. Abu Muhammad Ahmad ibn Muhammad al-'Asim; has said: "This hadith is accepted by ummah, and it is in conformity with the principles.

Likewise, the following traditionalists (among hundreds of others) have quoted that this hadith is sahih:-

1. Abu 'Abdillah al-Mahamili al-Baghdadi in his Amali; 2. Ibn 'Abdi 'l-Barr al-Qurtubi in al-Isti 'ab; 3. Ibnu 'l-Maghazili ash-shafi'i in al-Manaqib; 4. Abu Hamid Ghazzali in Sirru 'l-'alamayn; 5. Abu'l-Faraj ibn al-Jawzi in alManaqib; 6. Sibt ibn al-Jawzi in Tadhkirat khawaissi 'l-ummah; 7. Ibn Abi'l-Hadid al-Mu'tazili in his Sharh Nahji 'l-balaighah; 8. Abu 'Abdillah al Ganji ash-Shafi'i in Kifayatu 't-talib; 9. Abu 'l-Makarim 'Ala'ud-Din as-Simnani in al-'Urwatu'l-wuthqa; 10. Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani in Tahdhibu'l-tahdhib; 11. Ibn Kathir ad-Dimashqi in his Tarikh; 12. Jalalu'd-Din as-Suyuti; 13. al-Qastalani in al-Mawahibu 'l-ladunniyyah; 14. Ibn Hajar al-Makki in as-Sawa'iqu 'l-muhriqah; 15. 'Abdu'l-Haqq ad Dihlawi in Sharhu 'l-mishkat; and many others. [28]

It should be noted that all the names mentioned above are of Sunni scholars; and in Sunni usage, a hadith is called ''sahih'' when it is uninterruptedly narrated by persons of approved probity ('adil) who have perfect memory, does not have any defect, and is not unusual (shadhdh). [29]

If the above virtues are found in the asnad of a hadith but the memory of one or more of its narrators is a degree less than that required for sahih, then it is called "hasan[30]

So when the Sunni scholars say that the hadith of Ghadir is sahih, they mean that its narrators are of approved probity (i.e., they do not have any defect in belief and deeds) and have perfect memory, and that this hadith has no defect and is not unusual.


 

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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