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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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Rehmat
 
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Quote Rehmat Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2005 at 2:59pm

Originally posted by Suleyman

[QUOTE=blond] ....Blond,i did not put these pics as reflecting them the idols of mine;no they aren't...i love and respect them;but my only idol is Allah...two complaints on my pics makes me to delete them...this is the best,i think...

That's a very good thing you did brother. I do have pictures of Sayyid Maududi (ra) and Imam Khomeini (ra) in my private study room, but I would not display it as Avatar - though there is nothing wrong with that, but I would rather have some 'Islamic symbols' instead. Maybe, the Administrator could provide those.

One thing more - not criticism, but a suggestion - Allah (swt) is not an 'idol' - His Majestic is beyond human imagination - He is what He is.

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Quote Rehmat Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2005 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by blond

.....I have also seen people who display the images of others being called idolotors. I don't agree with this. 

However, I have seen images of Prophets being sold even in Mecca, and I am against that.

Could someone please speak to this issue?

Asslam-o-Aliakum

Here is a Fatwa’ on this subject by - Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Canada

"Photography as a medium of communication or for the simple, innocent retention of memories without the taint of reverence/shirk does not fall under the category of forbidden Tasweer.

One finds a number of traditions from the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, condemning people who make Tasweer, which denotes painting or carving images or statues. It was closely associated with paganism or shirk. People were in the habit of carving images and statues for the sake of worship. Islam, therefore, declared Tasweer forbidden because of its close association with shirk (association of partners with Allah). One of the stated principles of usul-u-Fiqh (Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence) is that if anything directly leads to haram, it is likewise haram. In other words, Tasweer was forbidden precisely for the reason that it was a means leading to shirk.

The function of photography today does not fall under the above category. Even some of the scholars who had been once vehemently opposed to photography under the pretext that it was a form of forbidden Tasweer have later changed their position on it - as they allow even for their own pictures to be taken and published in newspapers, for videotaping lectures and for presentations; whereas in the past, they would only allow it in exceptional cases such as passports, drivers’ licenses, etc. The change in their view of photography is based on their assessment of the role of photography.

Having said this, one must add a word of caution: To take pictures of leaders and heroes and hang them on the walls may not belong to the same category of permission. This may give rise to a feeling of reverence and hero worship, which was precisely the main thrust of the prohibition of Tasweer. Therefore, one cannot make an unqualified statement to the effect that all photography is halal. It all depends on the use and function of it. If it is for educational purpose and has not been tainted with the motive of reverence and hero worship, there is nothing in the sources to prohibit it."

It is not considered haram (forbidden) to hang family pictures on the wall; however, I should urge you against hanging them on the wall directly facing you in Prayer. For by hanging them in the direction of Prayer, your thoughts will likely be distracted; furthermore, it may inadvertently give the impression that we worship pictures. It is important for us Muslims to make ourselves distinct in our religious practices from those who associate partners with Allah in their worship. So never hang such pictures in the direction of your Prayer.

Still another point to consider: Never hang pictures of leaders and heroes, past or present, on your walls, for it may inadvertently lead to feelings of extreme reverence and hero worship, and this in turn may become an avenue leading to shirk. Such things are considered as avenues leading to that which is haram, and hence considered as forbidden. It is worth remembering that this was the main rationale for prohibiting carving images and statues in the first place.

Since, however, such motives are entirely lacking in hanging family pictures, there is no reason to consider it as haram.

 

 

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Tomorrow it will be too late
What You Don’t Know Can Kill You

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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2005 at 10:35pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

>>>Hmmmmmm! That's your word against me. Who is going to decide?<<<

That is the sunni defanition, so no it is not my word.

>>>Wrong again. As I wrote earlier, Sunnis (if Salafis and Wahabbi allows you to count - Hannafi, Maliki, Sufis, Nakshbandis, Deobandis, etc. as Sunnis then they constitute 85% of Muslims out of 1.5 billion, according to Saudi 'World Muslim League'! And I am not even excluding the 25 million Qadianis either!<<<<

What are you abjecting to, i gave a rough figure of sunni muslims who follow a madhhab. You label the overwhelming majority of muslims belonging to a sect that is not a rational proposition nor something believed by a mojority of muslims. Am i supposed to refute everystatement an indevidual makes, you have your beliefs we have ours.

>>>Which scholars, dear? Does your list also includes Imam Ja'afar Sadiq (ra), who happened to be teacher of Imam Abu Hannifa (ra) and Imam Malik (ra)?As for 'my angle' is concerned - it goes straight to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), who never called himself a Sunni - or did he?<<<

You actually want me to list the scholars who followed a madhhab?

Imam Jaffar as sidiq did not establish a madhhab, nor do sunni's believe what you attribute to him.

>>>No, the 'Learned one' - but can you teach me?<<<

you reply is bordering on insulting i suggest you tone down your reply's or they will be moderated, please read the forum guidlines for posting.

>>>I give a hoot what your point of view is - because I never live in 'self-denial'. As I noted above - both Maliki and Hannafi 'Fiqah' are influenced by 'Fiqah-e-Ja'afari'.<<<

I suggest you follow the example of Imam jaffar as sidiq when it comes to replying and act with adab.

This is what Imam Jaffar as sidiq actualy taught Imam Abu Hanifa,

Ibn `Abidin relates in his al Durr al mukhtar that Imam Abu Hanifa said: "If it were not for two years, I would have perished." Ibn `Abidin comments:

For two years he accompanied Sayyidina Ja`far al-Sadiq and he acquired the spiritual knowledge that made him a gnostic in the Way... Abu `Ali Daqqaq (Imam Qushayri's shaykh) received the path from Abu al-Qasim al-Nasirabadi, who received it from al Shibli, who received it from Sari al-Saqati who received it from al Ma`ruf al Karkhi, who received it from Dawud at Ta'i, who received the knowledge, both the external and the internal, from the Imam Abi Hanifa.

Ibn `Abidin, Hashiyat radd al-muhtar `ala al-durr al-mukhtar 1:43.

Both Imam Abu Hanifa and Imam Malik Developed there own Usul al Fiqh they did not aquire it from Sayidinah Jafar as Sidiq.

>>>Thanks for avoiding to call me a 'Kafir'! Because, just being a 'Muslim' never satisfy the sectarians.<<<

I'l remember to call my Shia friends that next time we go to pray Dhur while we apoint a Salafi br as our Imam.

>>>I could post a Salafi website to show how misinformed you're about sects - But then it would be just like advertising an Israeli website.

Any comments on that?<<<

You should be more carefull where you get you information from, Tasawuf is an Islamic science, if you like i can provide for you quotes from Clasical Sunni muslim scholars.



Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Rehmat
 
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Quote Rehmat Replybullet Posted: 01 April 2005 at 5:30am

That is the sunni defanition, so no it is not my word
.

 

Which of the 35 sects among Sunnis have that ‘definition’? Anyone other than Wahabism or Salafism? Because these two sect believe that the remaining 32 Sunni sects and 37 Shi’ite sects – all are heretics or Kafirs!

What are you abjecting to, i gave a rough figure of sunni muslims who follow a madhhab…

 

Do you know when some is talking of ‘rough figure’ – he says ‘approximately’ or ‘estimated’. This distortion of population to serve your hatred towards Shi’ites destroy your credibility, once for all.

 

Imam Jaffar as sidiq did not establish a madhhab, nor do sunni's believe what you attribute to him
.

 

Ignorance is very dangerous thing buddy. What I ‘aatribute’ come from a great Sunni historian from Pakistan, Dr. Jamil Ahmad in his masterpiece ‘Hundred Great Muslims’. I can assure you the writer is more knowledgeable than ‘you and me’ put together.

you reply is bordering on insulting i suggest you tone down your reply's or they will be moderated, please read the forum guidlines for posting
.

 

Are threatening me as a Moderator or what?

I suggest you follow the example of Imam jaffar as sidiq when it comes to replying and act with adab
.

 

And what’s wrong with the rest of Imams – Abu Hannifa, Shaifi, Malik, Hassan al-Bannah, Khomeini, etc? But you just said my ‘attributions’ of Imam Ja’afar (ra) were wrong!


I'l remember to call my Shia friends that next time we go to pray Dhur while we apoint a Salafi br as our Imam
.

 

I can assure you – You would not be the first one!

You should be more carefull where you get you information from, Tasawuf is an Islamic science, if you like i can provide for you quotes from Clasical Sunni muslim scholars
.

 

NO thank you very much. I am quite well informed about the background of ‘this science’ – going back to Hinduism and Buddhism.

 

As for the ‘scholars are concerned’ – Sunni Sufis like Hamza Yusuf, Hassan Turabi, Abdullah Hakim Murad, Nuh Han Him Keller, and Dr. Saeed Ramadan are called DEVIANTS by the Wahabi and Salafi scholars.


[Moderator  Edited]
 

Please read the forum guidlines!

3. Use of upper case and bold (font) is not permissible for the whole of the message body, however it may be used to add emphasis to words or phrases contained within your message.



Edited by rami
Know your enemy!
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2005 at 3:15am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum 

>>>Which of the 35 sects among Sunnis have that ‘definition’? Anyone other than Wahabism or Salafism? Because these two sect believe that the remaining 32 Sunni sects and 37 Shi’ite sects – all are heretics or Kafirs!<<<

Your minority views dont count for much.


>>>Do you know when some is talking of ‘rough figure’ – he says ‘approximately’ or ‘estimated’. This distortion of population to serve your hatred towards Shi’ites destroy your credibility, once for all.<<<

Haste is from shaytan and so is anger, your posts are full of both.

We should emulate those whom allah loves,

"... Allah only desires to keep away the uncleanness from you, O people of the House! And to purify you a (thorough) purifying (33:33)".

Allah's wish is to purify them, we should also wish the same for our selves.

>>>The mahdhabs which consist of roughly 90% of all sunni muslims<<<

>>>Ignorance is very dangerous thing buddy. What I ‘aatribute’ come from a great Sunni historian from Pakistan, Dr. Jamil Ahmad in his masterpiece ‘Hundred Great Muslims’. I can assure you the writer is more knowledgeable than ‘you and me’ put together. <<<

I have never heard of him, so i dont see what your point is in quoting him there are many great clasical muslim historians.

>>>Are threatening me as a Moderator or what?<<<

you reply is bordering on insulting i suggest you tone down your reply's or they will be moderated, please read the forum guidlines for posting.

I think i made my self very clear.

>>>
And what’s wrong with the rest of Imams – Abu Hannifa, Shaifi, Malik, Hassan al-Bannah, Khomeini, etc? But you just said my ‘attributions’ of Imam Ja’afar (ra) were wrong!<<<

As Imam Abu hanifa said he was a man of extremely high adab, you should act more with adab.

>>>I can assure you – You would not be the first one!<<<

That was not a pun, i was very serious my shia friends will laugh when i tell them i was accused of calling a shia Kafir, and incase you didnt understand my last statment very regularly our Imam is a Salafi br.

>>>NO thank you very much. I am quite well informed about the background of ‘this science’ – going back to Hinduism and Buddhism.<<<

That is a joke and an orientalist view, unless you misread my quote about Imam abu hanifa and Imam Jaffar al siddiq, 'Imam Abu Hanifa was taught Tassawuf by Jaffar al Sidiqq" so i very much doubt you are informed or rely on accurate sources.

>>>As for the ‘scholars are concerned’ – Sunni Sufis like Hamza Yusuf, Hassan Turabi, Abdullah Hakim Murad, Nuh Han Him Keller, and Dr. Saeed Ramadan are called DEVIANTS by the Wahabi and Salafi scholars.<<<

I didnt mean contemporary scholars i said "clasical scholars".

Scholars Like;

al-Hasan al-Basri, Imam Abu Hanifa, Sufyan al-Thawri, Imam Malik, Imam Shafii, Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Al Hakim Al Tirmidhhi....etc

what salafi's say about those scholars means very little, they are a minority in islam, Many scholars from traditional sunni schools of law hold them in high esteem as traditional muslim scholars They have Ijaza's from very well known scholars so the doubt you place on there qualafications is  false. Shaykh Hamza yusuf also has/had a very popular t.v program in Saudi Arabia so being labeled a Deviant by the saudi government is also false, he is very popular among the youth.

I dont see why you keep bringing up "one" of many salafi point's of view, there ideas and positions on issue's are not codified or consistant from one group to another!

your reply keeps reffering back to them and it makes very little sence what it is you are trying to say.


Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2005 at 3:21am

Originally posted by Rehmat

As for the ‘scholars are concerned’ – Sunni Sufis like Hamza Yusuf, Hassan Turabi, Abdullah Hakim Murad, Nuh Han Him Keller, and Dr. Saeed Ramadan are called DEVIANTS by the Wahabi and Salafi scholars.

 

I know some people, claiming to belong to no specific group, but have a motif of bellitlling "a" group, bringing quotes from "another" group, which they know are positively "anti" to this first group.

 

Like some to the non-muslims would want to provoke the sunnis, with quotes from shias etc.

 

There are two groups in India a) barelwi b) dewbandi ... I can never remember who is who, but one is a sufi and other is a salafi. There is a "qissa"  which some ppl (belonging to none of the above mentioned groups) will not fail to relate to you(if they know you have a suif bend) about one of the scholars of the sufi group on his death ..... that when he died, people saw the face of the corpse was like a pigs.  What should someone do if people talk like this ... you should get up and walk out of the mahfil, because the believers are those who walk on this earth in humility, when the ignorant address, they say peace ....

 

Salafis are the only group who think they have the right to call anybody and everybody a DEVIANT.

 

Your tone is very belligerant. You do not give an impression of discussing  the matter, rather trying to flaunt  your knowledge accompanied by a dismissal to everything that is, or will be brought forth.

 

Last but not the least. You can assure nothing about sufism. Tassawwuf should not be taken from people who do not have proper adab towards shcolars (Ulema) of Islam!

 

N

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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Quote Habib Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2005 at 4:01am
Originally posted by Nausheen

I know some people, claiming to belong to no specific group, but have a motif of bellitlling "a" group, bringing quotes from "another" group, which they know are positively "anti" to this first group.

 

well i am just quoting the above quote coz its brilliantly summing up "some people". i hope these people stop this attitude

 

Originally posted by Nausheen

There are two groups in India a) barelwi b) dewbandi ... I can never remember who is who, but one is a sufi and other is a salafi.

The salafis here in pakistan would boil over this statement. this statement is factually incorrect. Sister plz visit the corresponding websites about barelwis and dewbandis to get to know them better. "" Niether is salafi :) "" i am refraining from saying more here coz i dont want a debate about them to start here :)

 

Salam

 

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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2005 at 5:04am

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem,

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullah,

Originally posted by Habib

The salafis here in pakistan would boil over this statement. this statement is factually incorrect. Sister plz visit the corresponding websites about barelwis and dewbandis to get to know them better. "" Niether is salafi :) "" i am refraining from saying more here coz i dont want a debate about them to start here :)

 

I am sorry to have outraged some brothers in Pakistan. Well, I dont know either of these groups. All I know is that they are talked about too much in discussions when ppl get nothing to belittle sufis ....

If none are salafis, i stand corrected

 

Maa salaama

Nausheen

 

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